To think that my PIP assessor has deliberately told lies?

[Godstopper]

Previous thread here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3107566-AIBU-to-be-terrified-of-my-PIP-assessment

To update: I requested a copy of the assessor's report which arrived today. If the DWP decision maker follow this (as I expect they will), then I will lose £90 a month as I'll only receive standard care. I have a total of ten points: 2 for requiring an aid to bathe and 8 for communicating (deaf).

I recorded the assessment (with permission). The assessor can be heard on tape 3-5 times asking if I wanted to stop as I was visibly upset. She can also be heard offering me a tissue.

Here are some of the lies (I have no qualms about making this public - people need to see what is going on):

Cooking: "Reported restrictions that her partner will do most of the cooking. She feels that she is unsafe due to vertigo, reduced concentration, reduced motivation, requires supervision and prompting to be able to cook. Whilst acknowledging that she receives some cognitive behavioural therapy once a week for her mental health she appears well nourished. Therefore it would be clinically probable that she is able to carry out this task independently on the majority of days in a repeated, reliable, and safe manner."

Managing Therapy: "Reports that she is taken to therapy once a week by her partner. Functional history however reports that she will go into therapy on her own. She did not appear withdrawn and did not require prompting. She attends the therapy sessions on her own. Therefore it is clinically probable that she is able to complete this activity independently in a repeated, reliable, and safe manner on the majority of days."

Engaging with People: Reports to have restrictions engaging with others. Functional history reports that she is able to engage with her partner. Informal observations - did not require prompting, did not appear anxious, able to engage adequately well at assessment, adequate eye contact and rapport was maintained at assessment. Whilst acknowledging that she has cognitive behavioural therapy she did not appear withdrawn or anxious. Therefore it is clinically probable that she can perform this task independently on the majority of days in a repeated, reliable, and safe manner."

Mobility: "Reported restriction that she is unsafe due to her deafness and mental health problems. Will attend GP appointments on her own (THE SURGERY IS LITERALLY DOWN THE ROAD!). She did not appear withdrawn and did not need prompting. Therefore it is clinically probable that he (!!) could carry out this activity independently on the majority of days in a reliable, repeated, and safe manner."

And on it goes.

We are obviously off to appeal: it is now my mission to ensure that the cost of this dwarfs the £90 a month that they will save by awarding me a reduced rate. All lies are on tape. I am also going to do my best to impact her professionally by complaining to her registration body and taking it as far as I possibly can. A complaint about the quality of the report will also be made to ATOS.

Their response will determine if the recording makes it into the public domain. I am not afraid to name and shame either.

She couldn't lie about my deafness (I had an interpreter) but thought she could get me on my MH issues. This is what is happening to vulnerable people under reforms and it's disgusting.

Seriously, none of you need to justify what you can and can't do/struggle with on here.

PIP isn't about what you can and can't do essentially, it is how your disability(s) and or illnesses affect your daily activities.

Debka I'm interested to know, what's the longest your partner has witnessed someone fake a fit for?

@liney nothing I have said is disparaging. It is just the truth. He rarely speaks of work, if he does it is normally with sadness about an individual he has met who is suffering. I gave you the other examples to show that not everyone tells the truth.

However you would be surprised at the number of people who are trying to pull the wool over his eyes. He has had people fake seizures (when he says he will end the interview they suddenly recover), people he sees walking to the centre then claim not to be able to stand, the list goes on.

What a way to speak about vulnerable people. You must be so proud.

Ah yes, let’s engage in the faking claimant rhetoric.....

nothing I have said is disparaging.

Yes it is.

boston's doing a good job of displaying the sort of thinking of the assessors. Her post isn't about me, but it might as well be.

Currently having poor concentration doesn't remove someone's historical qualifications.

Poor concentration also doesn't mean you're not confident about the quality of your writing once finished. Some of mine is still pretty good. But it takes three days to produce instead of half an hour.

I may forget to eat breakfast and lunch while writing. Several days running.

Dealing with the DWP sucks up an enormous amount of my life. Weeks to read a document and then fill in a form or compose a letter. I can't see friends, or do hobbies, or garden while it's going on. I can't go to the shops even with a taxi and powerchair in case it leaves me too tired to carry on with writing the letter.

I would love to get PIP without going through this crap. But I can't.

And given it's so crap anyway, for so many people, why wouldn't I give a bit more of my life to it and try to make things better for other people? Much though people like boston might like me to lie down and give up?

Still the money is shit though. Poor things.

www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salary/Capita-Disability-Assessor-Salaries-E10883_D_KO7,26.htm

I have to make the phone call to claim pip for ds this week.

Fuck this shit.

No way will I allow them to make him feel like shit, to question him or to doubt him.

I've been fighting for him for 16 yrs, I'm willing to carry on fighting.

debka

What about the people who ARE telling the truth who get shafted by the assessors?

What's does your husband do about those?

I have a BA, MA, and PhD. All first class/distinctions. That would seem, on the face of it, compelling evidence of super concentration and motivation.

Except my PhD took me eight years with a two year break at one point due to mental health difficulties. I interrupted three times in total.

I haven't done any proper academic research for over a year. I am beyond frustrated and angry at where I was and where I am now. However, for the first time in my life I believe that I've received the correct diagnosis and am slowly working towards getting better.

It took me six weeks to complete the PIP2 form as I could only do it in short bursts. It'll be similar with the various letters I now have to write. When I said I started my MR today I didn't mention I managed ten minutes.

It's embarrassing and frustrating when I think of what I used to do.

The assessor said I had good concentration because I could read the interpreter's screen. That's insane: I read things extremely quickly as I've compensated for being deaf over the years, and moreover, I only had to read one sentence or so every other minute. It's not like reading a book.

As for food, I've had cereal and some biscuits today as my partner is away. Maybe that's why I look "well nourished."

I received a "has anything changed" form over a year before my pip was due to run out. I stated that a few things had WORSENED, but the rest had stayed the same as previously.

I was called in for an assesement over a year early as they "were not sure if I still qualified for it" (some of my conditions are DEGENERATIVE, but none are likely to improve).
I have, amongst other issues, rheumatoid arthritis, fibromyalgia, osteoarthritis of the spine along with the discs collapsing and crushing each other. I have disc bulges in my neck too and I suffer from depression.

The centre they asked me to attend was over 1hour drive away, even though I'd stated that I can struggle with driving; how much varies depending on the day/driving conditions/weather, etc.
The "girl" who interviewed me was barely in her 20s, so I'm not sure how she was qualified to understand my conditions anyway.

Tbf, she was nicer than the previous one, who also put things like hair looks brushed and clean, well presented, articulate, able to remember what her conditions are so obviously no memory issues (despite doing some silly thing where she asked me to remember a list and then later asked me to recall things on it, which I wasn't able to do).

I have issues remembering to take my meds and have to be constantly reminded, yet they won't take that into account because I can remember what's wrong with me, which is a different kind of memory process, not that they care.

Throughout the process, you're made to feel very small and like you're lying about everything; it's a very humiliating process to go through and if it wasn't for my partner helping fill in the forms and insisting I've just as much right as anyone else, I really wouldn't bother, as it makes me really anxious, stressed and really depressed (as you have to talk about what you can't do).

I hope that you sort your claim out though and I really appreciate you standing up for what's right and blowing a lid on how ppl are treated within this process.

Btw, my pp took me about 1 hour to type as my hands hurt and I need lots of breaks, which is why my oh filled in my form as I wouldn't be able to complete it in time. Ppl don't see that though.

@DuchessofLondon, looking at those salaries, I would imagine the job attracts those who went into nursing, found the salary wasn't that great, and decided they want to make money out of the qualification, rather than caring for, helping and supporting people.

What sort of training do these assessors get, I wonder? And does it include a coompassion bypass?

Perking,

That's how I feel about this process. The amount of time it's occupied, and continues to occupy, is unreal. It's detracted from other activities, and importantly, from focusing on improving my mental health. This is the first time in well over a year that I've felt quite as bad as this (I'm seeing my G.P about it). Ironic since the rhetoric is all about how the PIP process is supposed to be claimant friendly and supportive.

I don't think the assessor has deliberately lied. They have come to an assessment that differs from your own self assessment. Lots of the things in the sections of the report you have quoted are based on your own self reported symptoms, e.g. reporting difficulties concentrating, or similar. Another example - saying your partner usually cooks is not the same as saying they always cook and unless they've lied and the reality is you said that you never cook and he always cooks, then it is open to the assessor to conclude that you are capable of cooking some meals, and then inevitably there is going to be an element of subjectivity about assessing the severity of your symptoms when a lot of the evidence they have to judge it on is self-reported symptoms/abilities.

By all means appeal if they've got it wrong, but please keep in mind the above. This person is just doing their job and the tone of your post sounds like you are frankly on a bit of a witch hunt against this person and it makes uncomfortable reading.

Well, from the OP, this is what the assessor witnessed and did:

The assessor can be heard on tape 3-5 times asking if I wanted to stop as I was visibly upset. She can also be heard offering me a tissue.

and this is what the assessor wrote:

did not appear anxious, able to engage adequately well at assessment, adequate eye contact and rapport was maintained at assessment. ... she did not appear withdrawn or anxious.

So clinical judgement is one thing. But making false statements about what she has witnessed and done is another.

It's so shit how we've all been treated.

I absolutely hate dishonesty so the thought of playing anything up makes me sick to my stomach but that's what everything and everyone says to do (inc CAB) to get what we deserve.

It nice to have people who feel my pain, but on the other hand it's horrendous that so many share the story.

As someone said previously (sorry I can't remember who!) If people are out to scam the system they'll do it. They know how to play it and will have done research so to say that they're trying to crack down on fraudsters is a non point.
Bottom line is, if they want to screw the system they will, fucking over the rest of genuine people in the process!

...just because you can complain, doesn't mean you should morally.

I totally disagree Boston. Assessors are dealing with vulnerable, ill, dying and disabled people. Not all of them have the ability, energy and/or support to complain. Some are so defeated that they find the application and appeals process difficult, distressing and exhausting. If an applicant can complain, I support them in doing so and while I wouldn't put people under pressure to do so, I think that it is morally the correct thing to do.

It was inferred that, because my partner didn't regularly "prompt" me at assessment, therefore I don't require "prompting" in much of daily life.

Under her "observations" it says "read from prompting notes on her knee." I managed by having my claim form and notes as I just don't cope with unpredictable real life situations. My partner did not verbally prompt me but was obviously reassuring me in other ways. Of course, this cannot show up on tape.

The most serious issue, for my purposes, is zero points for engaging with others in real life. This is the one that's documented and where evidence appears to have been ignored. My GP couldn't have been anymore explicit. My therapist said that they don't get involved in writing PIP letters unless it gets to appeal. So I guess I'll now be able to get that too.

When you have effectively been called a liar and had things dismissed, of course you feel angry. I don't think writing a complaint constitutes a "witch hunt." It seems a reasonable response where things can be proven.

Writing a complaint if you feel it is justified is an incredibly moral and responsible thing to do - I’ve worked for 12 years for various health care professional regulators and can’t begin to tell you how much human pain and suffering would have been spared if people had had the courage to complain rather than waiting for someone else to do it or until something unbelievably dreadful happened

If there was a proper reason to complain then yes, but in this case there is no real reason. ]
The assessor was kind, offered to stop, offered a tissue if needed.
The OP is saying the assessor did not recognise her anxiety - in this case the outward sign being that OP cried and needed a tissue - Anxiety is a defined clinically as a worry of the future and fear. The outward sign is fast heart rate and shakiness. The nurse assessing did not see these outward signs and wrote down - did not appear withdrawn or anxious.
What is there to complain about? There are 2 opinions here - the nurse assessor's clinical opinion that there was no outward sign of anxiety - but a recognition of being 'upset' and a tissue offered as heard on the tape, and OP personal opinion that her crying was an outward sign of anxiety.
What will complaining to the NMC do?.....crying is not a clinical sign of anxiety....retraining the nurse will not change that.

I agree when an assessor has deliberately lied etc....saying they walked up steps in a house when in fact they live in a bungalow like a PP said etc, but I can't see here how the assessor has done anything wrong

@EmmaGeddon the courses are very short. I know the ESA one is literally a couple of weeks and then you are a qualified 'HCP' (Health care professional). I believe it is a similar process to be a PIP assessor.

Supposing the sign of anxiety is for this purpose was indeed designated to be "fast heart rate", and the assessor saw that the OP reported anxiety and exhibited something that might be an indicator of anxiety (crying) and then DID NOT MEASURE HER HEART RATE... but went on to write down "no signs of anxiety"... how would that reflect on the assessor?

In other fields, this would be described as wilful ignorance. And IIUC would not provide a defence against prosecution.

I dont know @Perking....my point was the assessor has not made a false statement as you all seem so keen to say she has
crying is not a clinically outward sign of anxiety

JekyllandHydesMother that was me and it is true. The worst I can remember is a friend who needed spinal surgery nit couldn't have it as would put her heart at risk. She spent half her life fighting systems, including someone to come and do her garden for her (she had a full time job (nurse) until a car accident left her severely disabled). Whilst she was fighting the council to get assistance help from them with the help of social services etc for every little thing, her fit and active neighbour got it no problem for his bad back. On the day of the council came out to do his garden, he was laying paving slabs in the front lawn, he simply lied and said 'James' had just gone to the doctors and he was a neighbour helping out. It was never even questioned by the council. My point being this person would have been able to fool the dwp just as much as he did the council.

It still shouldn't mean that genuine claimants are made to suffer though just because of those who will always fraud.
If these PIP assessors want to catch people out I'm sure there's some fraud investigation officer vacancies available where they can go and help.