To think that my PIP assessor has deliberately told lies?

[Godstopper]

Previous thread here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3107566-AIBU-to-be-terrified-of-my-PIP-assessment

To update: I requested a copy of the assessor's report which arrived today. If the DWP decision maker follow this (as I expect they will), then I will lose £90 a month as I'll only receive standard care. I have a total of ten points: 2 for requiring an aid to bathe and 8 for communicating (deaf).

I recorded the assessment (with permission). The assessor can be heard on tape 3-5 times asking if I wanted to stop as I was visibly upset. She can also be heard offering me a tissue.

Here are some of the lies (I have no qualms about making this public - people need to see what is going on):

Cooking: "Reported restrictions that her partner will do most of the cooking. She feels that she is unsafe due to vertigo, reduced concentration, reduced motivation, requires supervision and prompting to be able to cook. Whilst acknowledging that she receives some cognitive behavioural therapy once a week for her mental health she appears well nourished. Therefore it would be clinically probable that she is able to carry out this task independently on the majority of days in a repeated, reliable, and safe manner."

Managing Therapy: "Reports that she is taken to therapy once a week by her partner. Functional history however reports that she will go into therapy on her own. She did not appear withdrawn and did not require prompting. She attends the therapy sessions on her own. Therefore it is clinically probable that she is able to complete this activity independently in a repeated, reliable, and safe manner on the majority of days."

Engaging with People: Reports to have restrictions engaging with others. Functional history reports that she is able to engage with her partner. Informal observations - did not require prompting, did not appear anxious, able to engage adequately well at assessment, adequate eye contact and rapport was maintained at assessment. Whilst acknowledging that she has cognitive behavioural therapy she did not appear withdrawn or anxious. Therefore it is clinically probable that she can perform this task independently on the majority of days in a repeated, reliable, and safe manner."

Mobility: "Reported restriction that she is unsafe due to her deafness and mental health problems. Will attend GP appointments on her own (THE SURGERY IS LITERALLY DOWN THE ROAD!). She did not appear withdrawn and did not need prompting. Therefore it is clinically probable that he (!!) could carry out this activity independently on the majority of days in a reliable, repeated, and safe manner."

And on it goes.

We are obviously off to appeal: it is now my mission to ensure that the cost of this dwarfs the £90 a month that they will save by awarding me a reduced rate. All lies are on tape. I am also going to do my best to impact her professionally by complaining to her registration body and taking it as far as I possibly can. A complaint about the quality of the report will also be made to ATOS.

Their response will determine if the recording makes it into the public domain. I am not afraid to name and shame either.

She couldn't lie about my deafness (I had an interpreter) but thought she could get me on my MH issues. This is what is happening to vulnerable people under reforms and it's disgusting.

Backformoor: I'm really pleased to see that you have more insight into my health than my own G.P and other consultants who have treated me for years. Of course, being able to present a cogent argument logically implies being able to cook every day, get dressed, and engage with the world. I'll be sure to consult you about my functional restrictions in future.

Twat.

Very glad that Backformoor's comment has already been deleted as it sounds like it was disgraceful.

OP's ability to challenge a report packed with lies, in her own time, and with the assistance of her husband proves what exactly?

Hang on a wee second backformoor. So just cos she can appeal a decision on her PIP, means that she can cook a meal?
Yeah similar attitudes posed by DWP decision makers. Thankfully torn apart by Tribunal Judges .

And I'm glad you can do so so effectively despite being unable to do so much.

Do you seriously think anyone who can manage to negotiate the disability system should be refused help? Or are you just really shit at thinking?

Hi MyDC,

I had two recorders from Argos (£24.99) and tapes (you have to keep them wrapped until you're in the room). You have to let them know at least three working days in advance incase the assessor doesn't agree. It should be pretty straightforward!

The expense of it, of course, is another issue. It cost me approx. £70 in total for everything which people who are more vulnerable than me not be able to afford.

Hi Tammy,

I know what you mean about the form. You can request a two week extension. I had to as I could only do it in bits: I became upset at having to explain what I couldn't do when I've always tried to think about what I can in spite of things.

On my report this became things like "can articulate her conditions well" and appears to have been used against me. I have no words.

Good luck with all that, OP, the whole thing sounds dreadful and distressing.
My BF became disabled after developing MS. Her assessor seemed nice, but wrote that she could walk 50 yards, despite not having seen her walk at all, and being explicitly told she could barely manage a couple of yards with a stick and help.
She had a successful appeal, but I do worry about less articulate and capable applicants, and those who may not have help to fight this crap. It's disgraceful.

I think what Backformoor is trying to say, is that because you may be disabled, it means that you aren't capable of having any intelligence.

So what do you think of me- I have two degrees, reasonably intelligent, and am capable for taking DWP to tribunal. But then I also have mental health problems, mobility problems, and 3 other diagnosis which I'm not going into......

Good luck. A family member of mine was assessed last year and now awarded a penny from May even though their condition has not changed they are still awaiting the tribunal date. A family friend has had to give their mobility car back due to their service being out in hold.

backformoor you’ve obviously never had direct experience of close family members with disabilities.

I have. My father (who you may be happy to hear, is now dead and unable to take any more money from the bottomless pot ) suffered crippling agony for a year before he died. His life was not a happy party interrupted only by skipping down to the post office to collect his benefit money.

I only hope your privileged position continues. You might change your tune if you had to walk a day in the OP’s shoes.

I work full time and have never claimed a penny in benefits but I am fully in support of a system which does not harass the most vulnerable members of society.

I’ve reported your post. I sincerely hope you’re on a wind up and do not genuinely hold the views you’ve expressed on this thread.

I'm quite amazed there isn't an outcry at the cost of tribunals.

I have a relative who has narcolepsy with cataplexy. She developed it at 23 and lost her job as a result (she worked for a very flexible employer who tried everything to keep her on). She's tried all sorts of drugs and medications.

She's been through tribunals FOUR times. Twice for ESA, once for DLA and then once for PIP. Everytime she wins, every time the tribunal judge has made some sort of comment criticising the decision to take her to tribunal. She recently filled in a "has your condition changed" tickbox thing for pip and guess what? - they want another face-to-face assessment and no doubt the circus begins again.

Last time she went I went with her. There was a judge who was a lawyer, a doctor and a welfare rights person on the panel. The DWP also sent someone to put over their side. There was 15 rooms in that building with the same set up - how much does that cost everyday? And given it took a year for her appeal to come up, how much per year? No one seemed to come out upset at having lost. Such a waste.

And the dwp bullshit about people getting backpay if they win misses the point spectacularly. Not having dla award (last appeal was for pip when she transitioned) meant she couldn't renew things like her blue badge and lost premiums on her housing benefit. bsckpay doesn't fix everything

That's what I think too Paranoid. People who can't articulate themselves very well and who may not have wider support may simply give up. I think that is the intention.

I'm not lying when I say that completing my PhD was easier than navigating this process. I expect this is another thing that will be used against me by the DWP.

Backformoor sounds like the DWP guy at my friend's last appeal.

"Can you go online and plan a train journey?"

The fact she can meant she didn't qualify in his mind. The fact she can't safely and reliably do the actual journey didn't seem to matter.

I had one lie on the assessment years ago, he said that apart from anything else that I’d gone to the assessment alone and was therefore very much able to manage my mobility. I told them to check the cctv as my mum was with me. That was about 10 years ago, for incapacity benefit and it still makes me furious, thinking of that barefaced lie down on paper! I told them straight away and they gave me the full award and it didn’t need to get as far as an appeal.

Another lie is:

"Reports that her partner prompts her to get dressed. Appears well dressed. Therefore it is clinically probable that blah blah ..."

I was in jeans and a hoodie that I'd put on 30 minutes before at noon (assessment was only ten mins away).

The entire report is a weird combination of truths and half-truths, with the latter being used to award me zero on most issues pertaining to my mental health. I strongly suspect that if I hadn't had an interpreter, I'd have lost points for deafness too.

Putting this thread on MN is helping other people, OP. So thank you. And many sympathies for this awful stress you are being out through.

I'm supporting a friend through it. It's unbelievable unless you've seen it up close.

And the dwp bullshit about people getting backpay if they win misses the point spectacularly. Not having dla award (last appeal was for pip when she transitioned) meant she couldn't renew things like her blue badge and lost premiums on her housing benefit. bsckpay doesn't fix everything

Whilst the lump sums backdated are nice..its no use to me day to day. I don't have people I can lend of constantly for months on end whilst waiting for the backpay I know I am going to get. I doubt many people do.

PIP assessment is rather like being a military prisoner - instead of saying only "name, rank and serial number" it's "No, I cannot do that safely, repeatedly or reliably", only then explaining why, in words of one syllable...

The fact she can meant she didn't qualify in his mind. The fact she can't safely and reliably do the actual journey didn't seem to matter
Sorry to say, it's not just in his mind.
This is the most insidious question in my opinion. I wrote a long screed for Mandatory Consideration showing how various conditions negated the person carrying out the journey and I have it in writing from DWP in reply that the person does not have to be able to do the journey in real life, they just have to be able to PLAN it.

How they can deduce from the ability to plan a mythical journey that you lose points for physical mobility is far beyond my understanding. I may ask after the Tribunal.

Dione the outsourced company pays for the initial assessment. Tribunal costs are paid directly by the DWP. There is absolutely no incentive to get it right first time, unless practice is so poor that you get chucked off the contract. But since the overall aim is to 'prove' that many people no longer need benefits, there is unlikely to be any incentive to find people needing support.

Sorry to say, it's not just in his mind.
This is the most insidious question in my opinion. I wrote a long screed for Mandatory Consideration showing how various conditions negated the person carrying out the journey and I have it in writing from DWP in reply that the person does not have to be able to do the journey in real life, they just have to be able to PLAN it.

How they can deduce from the ability to plan a mythical journey that you lose points for physical mobility is far beyond my understanding. I may ask after the Tribunal.

It was ridiculous. The judge was very firm that the category is 'Planning AND following a journey". She actually made my friend laugh by pointing out that the DWP didn't take the mythical winnings of people who plan to win the lottery into account for means testing because it would be pointless, much like being able to plan a walking tour of the world when you can't safely get to the bathro far less the airport. She was seriously scathing of them.

The DWP did take 5 weeks after the tribunal to decide if they were going to appeal to an upper tribunal, but accepted it in the end.

Yes the back pay thing annoys me too. I hear a lot that if they take it away it won't matter because I'll get backpay I'm going through dla to pip at the moment and had my dla stopped for over a month because the agreed extension - with the MP, was 'rejected' and the MP got the money reinstated as I ended up at their office in tears and, so frightened I ended up screaming at them for being a liar - i know that doesn't make a lot of sense, luckily the MP was extremely kind and when they said it had been refused demanded to know exactly who had refused it as whoever they'd spoken to had said it was confirmed. They got the money restarted but I lost a month of dla and income support premiums - I won't ever get that money and during that period ended up stealing.

I've no one at all I can rely on financially so being able to win an appeal is of no use to me as I cannot survive the twelve months at least (keeps getting longer) it's taking for appeals to happen where I live, not to mention it being in a court - last time I was there was after I'd been assaulted and it was a horrendous experience - only one room and one waiting room, so you're treated exactly the same as those on trial for crimes.

A review in two years is appropriate to assess whether her deafness has fluctuated."

As it hasn't "fluctuated" in 36 years, it'd be pretty impressive if it started doing so now!

You pessimist!

Seriously though, I remember your thread and I was hoping yours would go as well as mine did. sorry this has happened to you. Do appeal, loads of people seem to win on appeal, so it looks like they are trying to deter people from claiming, then have to give in in the end!

My aunt really appreciated the back pay of DLA that was stopped. She got it 4 weeks before she died from cancer. None of us appreciated the stress that having to appeal caused her in her last months of life.

dione my best friend lost all of hers and ESA. She lived longer than the six months she was given with terminal cancer (which she needed to fight for due to a screw up with paperwork) - when she died she had no income at all and an eviction notice as it had all been stopped. When rung the DWP said she hadn't died so wasn't terminally ill and needed to reapply.

Unforgivable