To think that my PIP assessor has deliberately told lies?

[Godstopper]

Previous thread here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3107566-AIBU-to-be-terrified-of-my-PIP-assessment

To update: I requested a copy of the assessor's report which arrived today. If the DWP decision maker follow this (as I expect they will), then I will lose £90 a month as I'll only receive standard care. I have a total of ten points: 2 for requiring an aid to bathe and 8 for communicating (deaf).

I recorded the assessment (with permission). The assessor can be heard on tape 3-5 times asking if I wanted to stop as I was visibly upset. She can also be heard offering me a tissue.

Here are some of the lies (I have no qualms about making this public - people need to see what is going on):

Cooking: "Reported restrictions that her partner will do most of the cooking. She feels that she is unsafe due to vertigo, reduced concentration, reduced motivation, requires supervision and prompting to be able to cook. Whilst acknowledging that she receives some cognitive behavioural therapy once a week for her mental health she appears well nourished. Therefore it would be clinically probable that she is able to carry out this task independently on the majority of days in a repeated, reliable, and safe manner."

Managing Therapy: "Reports that she is taken to therapy once a week by her partner. Functional history however reports that she will go into therapy on her own. She did not appear withdrawn and did not require prompting. She attends the therapy sessions on her own. Therefore it is clinically probable that she is able to complete this activity independently in a repeated, reliable, and safe manner on the majority of days."

Engaging with People: Reports to have restrictions engaging with others. Functional history reports that she is able to engage with her partner. Informal observations - did not require prompting, did not appear anxious, able to engage adequately well at assessment, adequate eye contact and rapport was maintained at assessment. Whilst acknowledging that she has cognitive behavioural therapy she did not appear withdrawn or anxious. Therefore it is clinically probable that she can perform this task independently on the majority of days in a repeated, reliable, and safe manner."

Mobility: "Reported restriction that she is unsafe due to her deafness and mental health problems. Will attend GP appointments on her own (THE SURGERY IS LITERALLY DOWN THE ROAD!). She did not appear withdrawn and did not need prompting. Therefore it is clinically probable that he (!!) could carry out this activity independently on the majority of days in a reliable, repeated, and safe manner."

And on it goes.

We are obviously off to appeal: it is now my mission to ensure that the cost of this dwarfs the £90 a month that they will save by awarding me a reduced rate. All lies are on tape. I am also going to do my best to impact her professionally by complaining to her registration body and taking it as far as I possibly can. A complaint about the quality of the report will also be made to ATOS.

Their response will determine if the recording makes it into the public domain. I am not afraid to name and shame either.

She couldn't lie about my deafness (I had an interpreter) but thought she could get me on my MH issues. This is what is happening to vulnerable people under reforms and it's disgusting.

Your appeal should be a shoo-in on the cooking descriptor. You're well-nourished because your partner cooks for you both, they can't assume that you can cook safely just because you're not stick thin!

Mobility's a bit more tricky, and I believe they've changed the rules re mobility on grounds of anxiety etc.

It doesn't mean the assessor lied though. All their reports are audited and they are made to alter them. That's why my friend gave up being a PIP assessor after about 6 months. She was constantly told to rewrite reports so that people would be awarded fewer points.

Hi LakieLady,

The mobility descriptors have recently changed to better include those with sensory impairments: in fact, they explicitly make reference to deafness and say a profoundly deaf person may score points for needing someone with them to get to familiar/unfamiliar places. It's the getting to unfamiliar places that I have problems with. She's not taken this into account at all and appears to be blindly copying/pasting stuff.

Plan of action so far is:

• Do a mandatory reconsideration as soon as the decision notice arrives.
• Official complaint to ATOS which will be escalated if it is dismissed.
• Official complaint to the Nursing and Midwifery council (she's a nurse).

My MP and the Professional Standards Authority will be included in all correspondence. I am prepared to go to tribunal and would actually welcome the opportunity to show this for the farce that it is.

Yes a lot of them lie deliberately. Mine completelymade stuff up, I suddenly was going to the shop which is 30 mins away (local shop is maybe 3 mins walk) to buy bread and milk TWICE A DAY. Who the fuck needs to go to the shop twice a day for bread and milk? This is ignoring the fact that at that stage I barely left the house at all due to pain issues, which i clearly communicated.

I mentioned on my form thing that the doctors were investigating costochondritus. By the time I had the 'medical' the doctors had rules that out which I mentioned. My assessor insisted on keeping the 'costochondritus' diagnosis and also putting in down that condition would apparently not impact my life much!

It was all just ridiculous. I went from 0 points to standard award for both. my most recent one was full of lies too and the citizens advice and welfare rights both reckon I might actually get the higher rate for care now due to my consultants reports and such.

Welfare rights are amazing, if you have one in your area.

Oh my most recent one, forgot this...the assessor stated that I walked 17m to the assessment room. From this, they decided I could walk 200m with no issues

They also noted that I had to literally drink my oramorph straight from the bottle due to the amount of pain I was in (I thought I was going to leave the place in an ambulance tbh...hence trippling my medication to try and not be in A+E) but then stated that my pain levels were low, Its ridiculous.

YANBU OP. I regularly go through PIP reports with clients and there has never been one that is accurate. When my mum was assessed they wrote that she reported struggling to go up and down stairs, but as she lived in a bungalow, this was not problematic. My mum lives in a 3 storey house and the stairs are in the entrance hall. The assessment took place in her home.

So given that I have never seen an accurate assessment, I conclude that they deliberately lie minimise the extent of people's problems. It is disgusting.

Hi Bat,

Did you go from zero to standard at MR or tribunal stage? I am expecting to go to tribunal even though it is just two points I need.

I've also just read:

"A review in two years is appropriate to assess whether her deafness has fluctuated."

As it hasn't "fluctuated" in 36 years, it'd be pretty impressive if it started doing so now!

I'm veering between laughing at the absurdity of it and outright anger. How can someone be a nurse and write stuff like this?

"in a reliable, repeated and safe manner" is the sentence the DWP decision makers are interested in - legally that's what they're interested in, if you can do something reliably, repeatedly and safely that means zero points. They don't even bother to read the rest of it.

I knew someone who sat on appeals boards and frequently that was the reason for people winning appeals. Some medical papers didn't even have the assessors names on or had even been edited after the medical. At least once the DWP sent a rep to a tribunal to argue their decision was right and they were torn to shreds by the judge because all the information before the sentence "in a reliable, repeated and safe manner" totally contradicted everything else in the report and it had been edited according to the paper work (with no names available anywhere)!!

It was in the news before Christmas that if the DWP tribunals were treated like any other court case they'd never get that far through the legal process as the majority just don't stand u to scrutiny. I cant remember who it was or do a link but if I find it I'll post it.

I know it gets said a lot that a lot of people win at tribunal but, I just want to mention here, that won't include those who are unable to cope with even trying, now will it include those in areas where organisations like CAB or other welfare rights no longer exist due to cuts. I know the percentage of appeals where I live is very very low because of lack of services to help people, even things online can be hard to access when your internet is so slow that a lot of pages won't even load, or your phone signal keeps dropping.

At MR oddly enough. I wrote out a complete essay to them, it was literally 20 pages long. They gave me standard on both, but now with professionals looking over my medical reports it seems even back then I would probably have been awarded higher rate so basically...I kind of wish I had gone to tribunal with it as it would have been a lot more money and very much needed.

This time around though nothing changed at MR so I am having to go to tribunal. Its really annoyed me how they have seemingly randomly knocked points off here and there. And the flat out lies of course.

Do you have the name of the nurse? You can complain about them to whoever they're employed by to do the medical (ATOS/capita etc) and the NMC.

What do they mean by functional history?

It woud be a farce -except it isnt funny
not a Daily mail link

Functional history is what the claimant replies to the Assessor on his/her questions.
I am a Welfare Rights Officer. I do PIP appeals ( just back from 2 successful appeals). Lets just say my success rate is over 90%, as half the reports are bollocks.

I had the opposite experience. I had a home assesssment at the push of my mental health support worker. I thought that I would get nothing, and ended up with enhanced care and standard mobility.

My assessor was really good, he understood the different diagnosis I had, and the difficulties that they posed.

It's difficult when they ask you can you do X, and for me sometime I can and other days I don't have a hope in hell. What's the frequency? It varies- this week I could have 6 bad days, next week could be 1. It was this that I thought would go against me. But no, he took it all onboard.
But I do know I'm lucky, from reading about other people's experiences. I believe that if you took it tribunal you would definitely have an increase in points.
I had to go to tribunal regarding ESA- it had been stopped. I went in and the judge asked me 5 questions, then told me it was a waste of both our time, as I should not have needed to go to tribunal, as it was obvious from just my evidence (consultants etc) that I was too unwell at the moment to work. They are just trying to save money left right and centre, putting too many vulnerable people at risk.

Thanks Suzanne, and backformoor the op is quite rightly claiming money she is entitled to, due the impact of her disabilities on her life.

:( This sounds so stressful. I hope you get it all sorted. I don't have any experience so can't advise.

So impressed with your organisation and focus on getting the appeal process planned etc. It sounds so complicated and intrusive that it makes me feel all panicky and tearful just reading it - and my anxiety is mild enough to work full time!!! I genuinely don't know how vulnerable people are supposed to be able to access what the need. It's criminal.

Everyone I know who has appealed has won. You'd think that as "there isn't a bottomless pot", the assessors would do their job properly in the first place instead of concocting lies and misrepresenting applicants, costing time, distress and money.

I have heard from friends who have gone through the process that they have been advised to exaggerate and act to come across as ill as possible to try and counter the lies. Of course they shouldn't have to be degraded like that but it (apparently) seems to happen. One friend was told not to turn up to the appointment alone as it would prove she copes independently and even not to wash her hair/wear grubby clothes!! It's an absolute disgrace.

Hi backformoor,

Being "well nourished" doesn't logically imply that I can cook unaided on the majority of days. I don't. My partner does. My MH issues are well-documented and evidence was supplied which has been ignored.

I did not maintain eye contact with the assessor. I coped by looking at the floor. I was upset at various points to the extent that the assessor asked if I wanted to stop. This is inconsistent with her claim that I was not "anxious" or "withdrawn." This is all recorded on tape so there should be no issues disproving her lies.

Going to therapy once a week (which I am taken to) does not imply being able to engage with people in general. I don't.

I have issues going to unfamiliar places as I cannot hear announcements, directions etc. I have gotten lost before and ended up in unfamiliar places. I have missed appointments due to not hearing changes. The issue here is one of "reliably" and "repeatedly", and the answer is "no", I cannot reliably and repeatedly travel to unfamiliar places on my own. I never have. The assessor has displayed extreme ignorance of how my deafness impacts life more generally - it's not simply about speaking to people.

When lies can be straightforwardly proven (on the recording), I will certainly do what I can to cost the DWP/ATOS money. I will also do my best to impact her career. I now have her registration number and the Nursing and Midwifery council are starting to take these things more seriously.

It is not a case of he said/she said - the recording proves she has lied about my mental health issues. Her statements are also inconsistent with my medical records and information supplied by my G.P. Of course she needs to be taken to task.

Op how did you get permission to record, and did you need to use special equipment? X

Fucking disgraceful. Well nourished? Quite amazing given someone else cooks for you. Kick their fucking arses.

I've never applied for this very reason. I have daily severe chronic pain (endometriosis and fibromyalgia) and ME and I wouldn't be able to survive if it weren't for my husband and neither would our children. Unfortunately my anxiety is currently so bad that just trying to complete the forms gives me a panic attack. Can't do it.

Appeal, appeal and appeal again until you get to Tribunal. So many people are so afraid of the DWP's "threat" that they could have an existing award removed if they go to Mandatory Reconsideration that they dare not do it.

I felt most affronted that because my family member on that particular day could touch just behind and below their ears with both hands it was stated by the ATOS assessor they could not possibly have any difficulty in washing their own hair (Well for starters how about they can't even stand for that length of time or bend over the basin and that the range of movement in their arms and hands and the rest of the body varies and causes pain.)
Also the relatives' conditions are all from birth, but ATOS wanted a new PIP assessment after 18 months in case the conditions had improved.

We're off to Tribunal soon. I had to laugh, having been sent the directions to the court from the Clerk of the Court, which states By Rail, the Court is approximately a 20 minute walk from the station.

I am rapidly becoming a fan of Sir Ernest Ryder.
20 November 2017
Sir Ernest Ryder, Senior President of Tribunals has said the quality of evidence provided by the Department for Work and Pensions is so poor it would be “wholly inadmissible” in any other court.
He added that most of the benefits cases that reach court are based on bad decisions where the Department for Work and Pensions has no case at all.

Speaking at a recent Bar Council event, Ryder said his judges found that 60% of cases were “no-brainers” where there was nothing in the law or facts that would make the DWP win.

Such is the incompetence of the department, the Senior President said that he and his fellow judges were so incensed that they were considering sending them back - or charging the DWP for the cases it loses.

He said: “It's an inappropriate use of judicial resources, it's an inappropriate experience for the users, and the cost is simply not right.”

The percentage of cases lost by the DWP on appeal has been growing rapidly. In 2007, 44% of cases heard in the Social Security and Child Support tribunal went against the DWP. Ryder said the figures have now risen to a “staggering” 61%.
Source www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/2017/november/senior-judge-says-dwp-evidence-tribunals-so-poor-it-would-be-wholly-inadmissible

As for DWP, here's some interesting information, "And for an appeal, which might run to over 100 pages of documents, £100 isn’t going to pay for more than the time needed to collate the paperwork and send it to the Tribunals Service.
Which explains why Sir Ernest Ryder, senior president of tribunals, recently told a gathering of barristers that most of the decisions that the DWP tries to defend at tribunals are so bad that they have no case at all and cannot hope to win." Source www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/news/3702-13-december-2017-update

It is, manic - and sadly that advice seems to be the right advice. My friend's daughter was refused PIP after her assessment, one of the things written was that she walked from the car park and also that she had clean brushed hair. She must be fine, then

Everyone I know has won at tribunal too. It's a shocking and insidious waste of resources, not to mention attack on the most vulnerable in society. I'm waiting for my letter still (indefinite DLA) with mounting anxiety. I often look well, I'm articulate and like to dress well etc. No chance really. But in the last year I've been housebound for about two thirds of it. They don't take that into account, only make a snap judgment on the one day they see you.

It really is a disgrace and I can't understand why people aren't more up in arms. I'm so sorry OP, you must feel so let down. I'm glad you can turn this into anger and resolve, the system needs people like you to fight it as not enough can. Good luck and do let us know how it goes - hope that you get all you need and hope this nurse is well disciplined for this disgusting behaviour tbh.