To think that my PIP assessor has deliberately told lies?

[Godstopper]

Previous thread here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3107566-AIBU-to-be-terrified-of-my-PIP-assessment

To update: I requested a copy of the assessor's report which arrived today. If the DWP decision maker follow this (as I expect they will), then I will lose £90 a month as I'll only receive standard care. I have a total of ten points: 2 for requiring an aid to bathe and 8 for communicating (deaf).

I recorded the assessment (with permission). The assessor can be heard on tape 3-5 times asking if I wanted to stop as I was visibly upset. She can also be heard offering me a tissue.

Here are some of the lies (I have no qualms about making this public - people need to see what is going on):

Cooking: "Reported restrictions that her partner will do most of the cooking. She feels that she is unsafe due to vertigo, reduced concentration, reduced motivation, requires supervision and prompting to be able to cook. Whilst acknowledging that she receives some cognitive behavioural therapy once a week for her mental health she appears well nourished. Therefore it would be clinically probable that she is able to carry out this task independently on the majority of days in a repeated, reliable, and safe manner."

Managing Therapy: "Reports that she is taken to therapy once a week by her partner. Functional history however reports that she will go into therapy on her own. She did not appear withdrawn and did not require prompting. She attends the therapy sessions on her own. Therefore it is clinically probable that she is able to complete this activity independently in a repeated, reliable, and safe manner on the majority of days."

Engaging with People: Reports to have restrictions engaging with others. Functional history reports that she is able to engage with her partner. Informal observations - did not require prompting, did not appear anxious, able to engage adequately well at assessment, adequate eye contact and rapport was maintained at assessment. Whilst acknowledging that she has cognitive behavioural therapy she did not appear withdrawn or anxious. Therefore it is clinically probable that she can perform this task independently on the majority of days in a repeated, reliable, and safe manner."

Mobility: "Reported restriction that she is unsafe due to her deafness and mental health problems. Will attend GP appointments on her own (THE SURGERY IS LITERALLY DOWN THE ROAD!). She did not appear withdrawn and did not need prompting. Therefore it is clinically probable that he (!!) could carry out this activity independently on the majority of days in a reliable, repeated, and safe manner."

And on it goes.

We are obviously off to appeal: it is now my mission to ensure that the cost of this dwarfs the £90 a month that they will save by awarding me a reduced rate. All lies are on tape. I am also going to do my best to impact her professionally by complaining to her registration body and taking it as far as I possibly can. A complaint about the quality of the report will also be made to ATOS.

Their response will determine if the recording makes it into the public domain. I am not afraid to name and shame either.

She couldn't lie about my deafness (I had an interpreter) but thought she could get me on my MH issues. This is what is happening to vulnerable people under reforms and it's disgusting.

Yet lots of people seem to be having their appears upheld. What is happening? Are the assessors undertrained? Looking for the wrong things? Using wrong measures or something?
No, they're lying. There is plenty of evidence to demonstrate including a channel four documentary clearly showing a man working for one of these companies filling in the forms BEFORE meeting the client, calling them fat and lazy etc.

My DB has been through this. Apparently, he perked up during the interview because it was an attractive young woman doing the interview and made the best impression possible. Also, he was asked, can you cook? He said yes. So he was turned down and declared fit for work, when he hasn't been able to get a job for about 25 years and no employer would ever look at him.

An appeal was made for him, with GP letter etc. Further interview (I'm virtually NC with him so I'm hearing about this second hand, that's not relevant here). Yes he can cook, but he can only cook one thing, rice. He hasn't done that for 2 years.

He's been awarded it now.

Assessors have a tendency to lie and be unsympathetic. My neighbour is incontinent but showered and wore clean clothes for an assessment. The assessor said she wasn't incontinent because she didn't stink of urine and her clothes weren't stained! She had to appeal and the next time she was assessed she purposely wet herself before going in. It's undignified to treat people like that

I find it hard to believe that the assessors are just lying

Then find a more acceptable and less inflammatory or goady term.

"Liar" has not featured in any of my objections to the DWP, but I have made point of stating things like
'I don't believe the assessor is aware of
The assessor seems to have misunderstood
The assessor appears to have assumed that because my relative can do A then it's automatically possible for them to do BCDEF which simply is not possible because

Read the Benefits and Work website and forums for real life instances of how this affects people across the board every day.

I've no idea about the assessors' training, but from the receiving end of all these practises, I despair when i think of what happens to people who haven't the ability to appeal these decisions and stand up for themselves. My relative does not have this ability that's why I'm advocating.

Maybe you're not familiar with the system but at every stage of the appeal process you are warned that a different person will review your case and may downgrade the award that's already been decided.
For many people, that feels like intimidation and they are so terrified of losing the little they have, they just accept it.

The 'how can this happen' isn't really an issue on this thread, it's practical advice required to do something about it so disabled people receive the support they NEED.

Isn't it the impact of the incontinence rather than the incontinence itself they award points for?

I was very lucky I think. My assessor was very nice and actually added things into the report that I had forgotten to mention!
I'm paralysed from the chest down (wheelchair user) and incontinent.
I have a carer 3 times a day who came with me to the assessment.
The whole thing took about 25 mins.
I was on middle rate care DLA and high rate mobility and now I'm on enhanced care and enhanced mobility PIP indefinitely.
But then I suppose my disability is very visible !

You don't get any points for being incontinent but you get maximum points if you can't change your clothes or pads etc yourself

It looks so simple, doesn't it?

www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/personal-independence-payment-pip/pip-points-system

I think part of the difficulty is that the balance is skewed in favour of the DWP. The 'ordinary Joe Public', (and by that I exclude anyone who has had the opportunity to post on this thread, because you have had the benefit of sharing your experience, talking to an assessor, talking to someone who has appealed, talking to someone who was successful first time, etc.,) has no idea what they are looking for, what they want, what they don't want, and is completely at their mercy.

So they will put their best foot forward (it's an official appointment), be early (can't keep the nice people waiting), do whatever they can to be there (don't dare lose their benefit), try to be positive in answering the 'warm up questions' on the way to the assessment room (don't want to be rude), won't complain about the long walk (don't want to be ungrateful), will do their best in all the tests (don't want to be a fuss pot), and will answer all the questions with minimalistic answers (well, it could be worse, and plenty suffer just as much).

So they get absolutely slated in the report, and come out thinking how lovely, quick and easy it all was, or that it was pretty hard, but it's over now and the person said they had what they needed, so that's good.

I find it hard to believe that the assessors are just lying. It’s a professional job and presumably, if a lot of their decisions where overturned at appeal, they would be “found out”.

Yes, it's a shock to realise there is actual lying going on.

But look at it from the DWP's point of view. The DWP doesn't care if either assessors or decision-makers are "found out".

"Found out" doing what? Helping the DWP meet its financial objectives. Why would senior management at the DWP be upset at this?

The nurse's professional body is the only which might have something to say about it. But since the professional bodies are usually also defence bodies for their members, that's not a foregone conclusion.

I can't prove my assessor lied, of course. But the best case scenario seems to be one of someone who has done the report in a rush as there are clearly phrases that have been copied/pasted into several answers. She sometimes refers to me as "he", does not write in complete sentences, misspells a lot. This is pretty shocking for what is supposed to be a professional report that forms the basis of the final decision.

I don't even know what to say about the incontinent lady. We should not be made to perform. I'm 100% convinced now that this worsens mental health. Instead of a discussion about the help you need, it's all about what you cannot do. You leave the assessment feeling pretty beaten up and are then basically called a liar on the report. I'm making sure the effect on my MH is documented.

Yes lougle, and those 'warm up' questions are not as innocuous as they seem. If you have stated issues with concentration and/or motivation then do NOT:

• Say you like to read.
• Watch television.
• Use the internet.

I had all of these and it was pretty obvious what she was up to from the start. Some might be caught unawares. For those with mobility issues beware of the 'do you have a dog' Q as it will be assumed you walk and care for it.

I don't mean you should lie. I simply mean that you should think carefully about how apparently innocent questions can be used to score you zero points on various activities that you genuinely have difficulties with.

Last time I put in and official complaint to ATOS, their management said the doctor's behaviour was unprofessional and unacceptable "if he indeed did as you say" (sadly my recording device failed on that occasion). ATOS then threw out his report on its content alone, not on my word, since it showed he hadn't carried out the sort of assessment necessary for my health condition.

When I went back to the ATOS centre for the replacement assessment months later, there was the same doctor, large as life. I recognised him, he'd been there for years and his failures were basic ones: attempted to assess a fluctuating condition on a period of one week; attempted to stop me taking notes.

Neither of these is a little slip-up on something he would have been unaware of. Therefore neither of these would be fixed by retraining. ATOS just continued to employ him, no worries.

My ds got turned down initially transferring from lifetime dla to pip. The report stated things like "he states cannot cook a simple meal" (he can't) "he can't follow a known route" (again, impossible for him). She followed all this up with "I decided he can".

Well, ok then! Because that would make my life a lot easier.

She gave him 0 points! Asked for a mandatory reconsideration and got a totally different letter and he's back to the maximum (although standard for mobility and I really don't have the energy to fight that)

The whole thing just consisted of her saying 'I decided he can' over and over. She was so nice at the assessment too. Maddening!

I wish I could set up a form filling charity. I think that would solve half the problems. If people realised that they have to make everything completely unambiguous, with no possibility of misconstruction or selective sampling, including a statement about what would happen if they didn't have the support they claim they need, the would be a lot more successful genuine claimants.

Yy re the "detective questions" and the assessors leaping to assumptions (they're told to do this, IIUC).

Benefits and Work is very good at explaining these. Agree with Godstopper, you don't lie. You make sure you give MORE information than the assessor was happy to stop at, so they can't slip their assumptions in.

So
Q: "Do you own a dog?"
A: "Yes. I don't do any of its care. My neighbour walks it and my sister bathes it occasionally."

Q: "Do you watch TV? What?"
A: "Films, occasionally. I can only watch in short chunks, maybe 20 mins, before I need a rest. And I can't retain what I've watched very well. So I can't follow anything with a complicated plot."

When rung the DWP said she hadn't died so wasn't terminally ill and needed to reapply

That sounds like something out of a satirical novel, but doesn't surprise me in the least. The system is so stacked against the vulnerable, it surely goes against all the principles of natural justice.

If the companies that carried out the assessments had to bear the cost of successful appeals, in the way that costs are awarded to the "winner" in a lot of litigation, they might just take a bit more care in their assessment reports. But of course, the government has no interest in people actually getting what they're entitled to.

I had a 2-year secondment as a benefit adviser, and like the poster upthread, had a success rate of over 90% at appeals.

My favourite "win" was an ESA appeal. The client had been assessed at home and the assessment was recorded, with permission of the assessor. The recording was played at the appeal and the client could be heard sobbing throughout, which made a mockery of the claim that she seemed fine and showed no distress etc. She was also accompanied at the appeal by the support worker who had been present at the assessment, and told the tribunal that she hadn't been well-dressed as claimed, as she had been in bed, in her nightclothes, throughout the assessment.

The best bit was the assessor's claim that he had witnessed the client climb 2 steps. Her son attached a Go-Pro to her wheelchair and took a video of the ramp up to her front and back doors, and done a "video tour" of her entirely level bungalow!

I find it hard to believe that the assessors are just lying. It’s a professional job and presumably, if a lot of their decisions where overturned at appeal, they would be “found out”.

My first one definitely told out and out lies. It was not something that could be misreported or anything..it was simply made up, and utterly ridiculous. The judge actually laughed out loud when going through the report. There were a few littler lies also, and some things that were assumed by the assessor. But they definitely did lie. This does not seem to be uncommon.

A friend of mine had a mental health assessment done by a retired midwife.

These companies are employed to lwoer the welfare bill/ Not to assess fairly.

This may be interesting to those who reckon that its all fair

www.channel4.com/info/press/news/the-great-benefits-row-channel-4-dispatches

The assessor my friend had called her narcolepsy "predictably unpredictable". Apparently knowing she might hit the deck without warning meant it wasn't dangerous or problematic.

My PIP assessment was appalling. I have been bedridden for a few years now. I use a chemical toilet by my bed as I cannot get to my bathroom. I have carers daily. I have a microwave and fridge at the end of my bed. My carer places the meal they have prepared in the microwave for me to re heat at night. My carer gives me bedbaths and washes my hair at the end of my bed.

I had a home assessment as too ill to leave my bed. I provided a lot of medical evidence. I got standard rate for care initially (I got high rate mobility). The assessor claimed I could cook, wash and bathe with aids. It was ridiculous. They did not change the award on MR so I had to start the tribunal process. As I am unable to leave my home I requested a home tribunal which I was warned could take at least a year. Eventually they closed my appeal and gave me enhanced care too but only a two year award. I have just sent off my PIP renewal form and waiting to hear back if I will have to have another face to face assessment. I am sure I will.

Good luck op. Definitely appeal as I know you plan to, so many people are incorrectly awarded and the assessors reports are often false.

Ps there were lies in my report. Talking exhausts me after only a short period. Due to exhaustion talked very slowly and had my eyes mostly closed throughout as it takes less energy. The assessor said I talked normally and had no problems. The assessor said my chemical toilet was a few metres from my bed. It's next to my bed. The assessor said I was observed to move my arm to my face during the assessment (bear in mind I am in bed lying flat) and so I would be able to wash myself with an aid. There were more inaccuracies too.

Finally, to be clear I had provided lots of detail in my form as to why I couldn't cook, wash, use toilet, breaking it all down.

@lougle - your description of what happens to "ordinary Joe Public" is scarily spot on in my case. I was awarded 10 points for mobility on the paper based claim, having never applied before despite being disabled for decades. At a traumatic point in my life and with encouragement from family and friends to claim what I was "entitled" to, I was quite happy with this award as it took the harsh edges off the daily financial grind - for a brief period I had a little peace of mind and slightly more than just an existence.

When invited to the face to face assessment, I thought I'd breeze it given that I was very clear in my paper claim and had given permission for them to contact my GP, see medical history etc. The proof was not only there in my records but also right in front of their eyes. I had no idea what to expect, was exactly as you have described and left feeling OK about it albeit frustrated that most of the time was wasted asking me irrelevant questions.

Miracle of miracles - ATOS cured me! From 10 points to 0. I look back now at just how little I really knew of the process and its intent - I didn't even know I could request a copy of the assessor's report. So without benefit of that, I wrote a letter for mandatory reconsideration and was dismissed out of hand. My mental health took a major nose dive after this and without knowledge of how the system works nor having anybody to advocate for me, I felt cast adrift and didn't have it in me to take it to tribunal.

Now 12 months on and having read horror story after horror story of how claimants are treated, how corrupt and unethical the system is, I agree that ordinary Joe Public doesn't stand a chance. So I am one of the people who dropped out and didn't take it further - I couldn't and didn't know how to take it further. From what I now understand, you not only have to be a benefits expert (or have one available!) but you also have to prepare to run your claim as a military campaign with DWP as your enemy! You have to know all their tricks, be fully aware and able to counter their lies and omissions at every turn and still have the fortitude to continue the good fight when they still turn you down despite overwhelming evidence. Nothing but admiration for people who have done so and won at tribunal - sickens me that this is what we've now come to.

The whole process has been far more damaging to me both mentally and financially than if I'd never engaged in the first place. I'm in a worse place now than I was before and despite the fact that my physical disabilities will never go away and are getting worse as I get older, I just can't face going through it again even though I am apparently entitled to this help. Knowing what I know now puts me off even more!

Had no problem obtaining nor renewing my blue badge though - although of course that did involve relevant questions, relevant examinations and exercises to determine my mobility problems. It blows my mind that one state agency can clearly see and understand the problem yet another claims I'm cured! Anyone would think they had an agenda...

Mine also lied. I don't think she did it deliberately, but through absolute profound ignorance about deafness. For example, she said that I heard her calling me from the door. I didn't. I saw my companion's head turn and turned my head to look in the same direction. If my companion hadn't been with me (and if I hadn't happened to be looking directly at their face at the time), I wouldn't have known the assessor was there.