To think that my PIP assessor has deliberately told lies?

[Godstopper]

Previous thread here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3107566-AIBU-to-be-terrified-of-my-PIP-assessment

To update: I requested a copy of the assessor's report which arrived today. If the DWP decision maker follow this (as I expect they will), then I will lose £90 a month as I'll only receive standard care. I have a total of ten points: 2 for requiring an aid to bathe and 8 for communicating (deaf).

I recorded the assessment (with permission). The assessor can be heard on tape 3-5 times asking if I wanted to stop as I was visibly upset. She can also be heard offering me a tissue.

Here are some of the lies (I have no qualms about making this public - people need to see what is going on):

Cooking: "Reported restrictions that her partner will do most of the cooking. She feels that she is unsafe due to vertigo, reduced concentration, reduced motivation, requires supervision and prompting to be able to cook. Whilst acknowledging that she receives some cognitive behavioural therapy once a week for her mental health she appears well nourished. Therefore it would be clinically probable that she is able to carry out this task independently on the majority of days in a repeated, reliable, and safe manner."

Managing Therapy: "Reports that she is taken to therapy once a week by her partner. Functional history however reports that she will go into therapy on her own. She did not appear withdrawn and did not require prompting. She attends the therapy sessions on her own. Therefore it is clinically probable that she is able to complete this activity independently in a repeated, reliable, and safe manner on the majority of days."

Engaging with People: Reports to have restrictions engaging with others. Functional history reports that she is able to engage with her partner. Informal observations - did not require prompting, did not appear anxious, able to engage adequately well at assessment, adequate eye contact and rapport was maintained at assessment. Whilst acknowledging that she has cognitive behavioural therapy she did not appear withdrawn or anxious. Therefore it is clinically probable that she can perform this task independently on the majority of days in a repeated, reliable, and safe manner."

Mobility: "Reported restriction that she is unsafe due to her deafness and mental health problems. Will attend GP appointments on her own (THE SURGERY IS LITERALLY DOWN THE ROAD!). She did not appear withdrawn and did not need prompting. Therefore it is clinically probable that he (!!) could carry out this activity independently on the majority of days in a reliable, repeated, and safe manner."

And on it goes.

We are obviously off to appeal: it is now my mission to ensure that the cost of this dwarfs the £90 a month that they will save by awarding me a reduced rate. All lies are on tape. I am also going to do my best to impact her professionally by complaining to her registration body and taking it as far as I possibly can. A complaint about the quality of the report will also be made to ATOS.

Their response will determine if the recording makes it into the public domain. I am not afraid to name and shame either.

She couldn't lie about my deafness (I had an interpreter) but thought she could get me on my MH issues. This is what is happening to vulnerable people under reforms and it's disgusting.

IM a pip assessor and what she has written and recommended is inconsistent. If you need an aid for activity 4 then it would be reasonable to suggest you need an aid for other activities as vertigo will probably affect your ability to stand to cook and obviously affect your ability to walk? Doesn’t make sense to me.

I had one that said I couldn't possibly have AS as I looked at her and answered questions. I scored no points despite the fact that I shit myself in the interview. I do mean, I quite literally shit myself and had to be shown the loos to change. I scored NO points!
Second time I lost my mobility despite the fact that there are days I can't drive, days I can't walk, days I can't plan a journey and I can't go anywhere new unless one of my dc does the journey with me a few times first. Oh, and I can't cope with roadworks or cities!

3 other points-being well nourished has no bearing on activity 1 cooking-it’s irrelevant evidence. Next point-the new rules regarding sensory impairment and engaging/following a journey do not come into place until 15/12018. Managing a therapy is mostly around remembing to take medication not go to appointments so she has justified this incorrectly. Hope this helps.

Barisn My assessors really stress to me that its not them that give the points. I am guessing from your replies that this is incorrect? The people doing my assessments always without fail at the start of the appointment tell me that its a DWP decision maker who gives the awards/points and not them. Which grates even more tbh as its someone with absolutely no medical background overriding my consultant, pain clinic, GP and such.

meant she couldn't renew things like her blue badge

Couldn't she go for a direct assessment at the council for Blue Badge renewal? Maybe she didn't know it's an option.
My relative did (because PIP isn't yet decided so an automatic renewal is out of the question) and they renewed the Blue Badge without any problem.
I requested a copy of the report and I'm submitting that as independent evidence of mobility problems as (well there's a surprise!) it was very different to the ATOS assessor's report.

Try for tribunal but be aware they prevented me going in for ds1’s .......

Bairnsmum I'm sure all information you can provide will be very helpful to someone, perhaps many people, on here struggling to negotiate PIP assessments.

*Couldn't she go for a direct assessment at the council for Blue Badge renewal? Maybe she didn't know it's an option.
My relative did (because PIP isn't yet decided so an automatic renewal is out of the question) and they renewed the Blue Badge without any problem. *

Their waiting time was 8 months because they had such an upsurge in people needing assessments after being kicked off DLA/PIP. They were swamped.

I should have said couldn't easily renew her blue badge, sorry.

Unfortunately assessors in the past have been taken for a ride by just believing what a person says. Im not sure what the answer is. I guess they try and form some sort of idea on whether its likely they can do the thing or not.

I would never lie at or following an assessment-this behaviour absolutely disgusts me. I’m not the gate keeper of the governments money-it’s nothing to do with me therefore I record exactly what is said/done in the room. I know people do sometimes mis record what happens but in my service I hope this is minimal. You are right we don’t make the decision but we do make recommendations, the case manager will look at it and decide. If they think we have missed something or are wrong they ask independent medical staff for advice or arrange a re-assessment. They are quite stringent (I think).

Unfortunately assessors in the past have been taken for a ride by just believing what a person says. Im not sure what the answer is. I guess they try and form some sort of idea on whether its likely they can do the thing or not.

Its usually not what someone says. The amount of evidence they expect is phenomenal..from my experience anyway. I have had to get my consultant to writer 3 personalized letters detailing my problems, same for my GP and send in every single medical report/letter/a+e discharge also. And its still all disregarded. On the say so of someone who lies (in every one of my assessments. I appreciate not all of the assessors lie..maybe I have just been unlucky)

Unfortunately assessors in the past have been taken for a ride by just believing what a person says. Im not sure what the answer is. I guess they try and form some sort of idea on whether its likely they can do the thing or not.
1)Rarely.
2)It has been pointed out on more than one occasion that consultant and GP letters are required, so what you've just stated is basically nonsense.

Thank you Godstopper, I would like to record my pip assessment but I thought you could only use a double tape recorder not two separate ones.

Bairnsmum you do (a) see all the reports sent in with the PIP applications and (b) contact the authors and /or GPs - don't you??

I'm sorry you're having a difficult PIP process. I hope your reconsideration is successful.

Just as a useful piece of information, for anyone reading, you can't score 12 points for mobility (necessary for enhanced mobility under PIP) if the reason for needing someone with you for familiar journeys is due to anxiety. Therefore, if you have more than one condition, including anxiety, you need to make it really clear that the reason you need to be accompanied is because of the other condition (s). Because if you give the impression that your anxiety is the cause, you will be pegged at 10 points and denied enhanced mobility.

WE see what is scanned on the system by atos but best practice to take to assessment just incase. They will take a copy. Assessors don’t get in touch with anyone-that is the case managers job, they will do prior to assessment to see if they can make a decision to save face to face assessment.

I know that the general rhetoric is that all assessors are out to deny every claim, and it must feel very punitive. I understand that it is a very fearful thing, but I sincerely hope it isn't true. Each assessor will hold a professional registration with a professional body. They will have assessment criteria. Not always ideal for the benefit at hand, I agree, but not arbitrary, either.

My mother was on an indefinite award of DLA with low rate care and low rate mobility. She should have been on middle rate care from the off, but as it was an indefinite award, we decided not to appeal and 'rock the boat' at the time. Now, 11 years later, she's been very unwell in psych hospital and hasn't recovered well. She's needed to transfer to PIP for uprating.

I filled in her form, and included section papers, SW assessment papers and discharge papers. Nothing else. She was dealt with as a paper assessment, no face to face. Awarded 29 points for care, and 12 points for mobility due to needing someone with her for all journeys, familiar and unfamiliar.

The CPN said she got a phonecall to double check some details from the form, but apart from that we had no contact but the decision letter.

I think the problem lies with trying to fit people into boxes.
Conditions are so different from person to person.
How do the consultants give accurate evidence when they only know how it's affecting you by what you tell them?
The source must originate from the person themselves?

I think the problem lies with trying to fit people into boxes

I think the problem lies in very erroneous assumptions like the examples in the OP.

It's all the "therefore it's clinically probable that this person can" do this task and 20 others which are far more complicated that I've not asked them about.

Their assumption that the impossible is "clinically probable" is why we're off to Tribunal. How can someone do something they've never been able to do in their life and there's a huge pile of reports saying so from birth to present?

I went with a friend who was very concerned about the change from DLA to PIP - indefinite award HRC HRM. Like many people here I read the horror stories and was worried.
The assessor was very nice - an OT who said looked primarily at the function and how the disability/condition affected life's function.
Went through each of the 12 sections and after an hour it seemed it was a fair assessment. We hoped it would be ok.
2 weeks later the letter arrived - HRC LRM. We requested the assessors report and it was accurate, except that she had misquoted what my friend had said in question 11 - getting around, and simply put when X condition flares up, does not leave the house etc.....

We asked for a MR, corrected the misquote - adding the information needed about when she has to leave the house - planning routes, having a person with her etc, and this obviously allowed the assessor to give the 8 points for that question.

She received a letter several weeks later giving the enhanced rates in both areas.

So I have seen a fair process, the assessor was kind, listened, and in the report - apart from 1 human error - simply wrote what was discussed. There was nothing on her part to gain by doing anything else. Perhaps she was lucky - perhaps its location, but I know lots of people who have been pleasantly surprised.

I have read lots that that MH conditions are worst hit by the change, physical disabilites that are 'obvious' are keeping their previous awards much more.

Sorry you didn't have better luck OP - but wanted to give some more balanced stories on the thread :)

The process took over 6 months for me. Because my assessor never sent the report

So after many phone calls and much stress I had to have a second assessment.

Formal complaint went to Capita but the first assessor “has left the business” so I never got any real answers.

Eventually got what I was entitled to, though.

The problem is the assessors have targets, and they’re not experts, my first one was an A&E nurse with no idea about ophthalmology (I’m visually impaired) so the system is flawed.

"I have read lots that that MH conditions are worst hit by the change, physical disabilites that are 'obvious' are keeping their previous awards much more."

I don't know, and my Mum is a case study of 1, but her condition is bipolar disorder with severe depression. She went from LRC and LRM to enhanced care and enhanced mobility with a paper decision, no face to face at a centre and no home visit.

I do have a lot of experience in doing these forms though. My DD1 had SN, so I did her DLA form at 3, 5 and 8. Then I did Mum's form x 2 before this one. So this is the 6th form I've done. I don't leave anything to chance. I answer every question in minute detail, really spelling it out, so there isn't any room for misinterpretation or wiggling.

Lollipop-I’m sorry to hear you had such a poor outcome initially. I’m not sure how they could lose the report? It should be electronically submitted within 30 minutes of seeing someone. There are no targets-none at all. Atos and dwp do not give us targets-we do not mention award rates with staff. Nobody knows their award rate in my service-we encourage them to assess fairly and think objectively about the reported problems-if in doubt always go with what the claimant reports. That is what the dwp teaches us. I can’t stress enough that we are not given targets to meet/people to take off DLA.

What does *clinically probable" mean?

bairns the difficulty is PIP was clearly sold to the public as a way to reduce the massive DLA bill, deliberately. For example by getting rid of low rate care, radically changing the goalposts at least once a year so less people qualify.

It is, as a claimant, and knowing others who've struggled and yes those who haven't, really really hard not to believe the targets to reduce those on DLA during transition isn't something assessors know something about - I'm not calling you a liar but I'm explaining it from the other point of view.

The expectation was to reduce the bill by something like 25%. The assumption being those people weren't genuine and others would be assessed to lower rates - not taking into account there are a lot of people who weren't able to cope with reassessment and could be moved to higher rate. Not to mention new claimants.

The same thing happened when ESA was introduced and the gov then found that far from getting more disabled into work it hasn't happened, too many were in support group so they narrow the criteria (literally) every six months. When first transferred more than one seizure a week meant support group, now it's more than one a day means work group - a massive change. There's been talk more than once of removing allowing those in support group to not be forced to look for work because too few are working (that'll be because they're too ill not because they're not doing work activities).