To think that women should be able to request a female doctor or nurse?

[Betti935]

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/the-female-nhs-nurse-i-asked-for-came-with-stubble-83rq9p0gg

Summary: A woman requested a female nurse to carry out her cervical smear test. When she arrived the nurse was clearly male (stubble, deep voice etc). When she questioned this, the nurse insisted that they were a woman because they were trans. The patient says she was made to feel like a bigot and in the end decided not to go ahead with the smear test.

Now in this case, the NHS Trust has apologised and said that the nurse did not handle the situation appropriately. However the government are planning to introduce into law the recommendations of the Women and Equalities Committee which include, not only allowing men to 'self-identify' as women without any medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, but also to get rid of the exemptions currently in place.

Currently, while biological males can legally 'become' women (following a diagnosis of gender dysphoria - there is already no requirement to have any hormone treatment or surgery), there are some limited exemptions in law:

“If a service provider provides single or separate sex services for women and men, or provides services differently to women and men, they should treat transsexual people according to the gender role in which they present. However, the Act does permit the service provider to provide a different service or exclude a person from the service, who is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or who has undergone, gender reassignment. This will only be lawful where the exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.” For example, it is currently legal for a group counselling session for female rape victims to exclude biological males if female clients would be not feel able to attend and participate in the group if they were present.

If this new legislation is passed and there are no exemptions allowing for transwomen (biological males) to be treated differently from biological women, there will be no way to protect vulnerable women who don't feel able to access rape services or medical services if they can't be sure of a female-only service.

This won't be like other rights conflicts (e.g. on sexual orientation versus religion) where test cases go to court and judgements are made because women won't exist as a separate protected group from transwomen.

As I have said, they are just grateful to get proper medical care. They look at a doctor and see a doctor, not a male or a female or a trans, ffs

This is patronising and bollocks

The NHS themselves set a precedence for this. They acknowledge the need for sex segregated wards with various policies and do in fact allow you to request a specific sex HCP/ chaperone.

That's very true stitch , however the proposed GRA amendments would fix in law that a woman is anyone who chooses to identify as such, and while at the moment there is a small protection in law for certain situations for women to insist on biologically female care/provision only, this would be removed.

I am talking about countries that I have lived in Canary. No need to be rude.

So Khalli, how big are 'transgender' issues in your country. Would you think that a man wanting to be accepted as a 'woman' was 'whining'?

Yes, what can be more privileged than a man with a penis and a beard saying he's a woman and everyone falling over themselves to validate him?

The woman, naked from the waist down, weighing up whether to go ahead with the procedure and feel violated or risk accusations of bigotry isn't the privileged one in this scenario.

Yes, what can be more privileged than a man with a penis and a beard saying he's a woman and everyone falling over themselves to validate him?

The woman, naked from the waist down, weighing up whether to go ahead with the procedure and feel violated or risk accusations of bigotry isn't the privileged one in this scenario.

Here is the NHS info page on cervical screening:

Screening is usually carried out by the practice nurse at your GP clinic. You can ask to have a female doctor or nurse.

• and from the patient leaflet downloadable from that page:

Cervical screening is usually carried out by a female nurse or doctor. If you want to make sure a woman carries out your test, you can ask for this when you make your appointment.

The right to request a female HCP for intimate examination and care is recognised as important for women's dignity and wellbeing and because without it, many women will simply not access health care.

Frankly I'm disgusted that we are having to defend this right, along with many other rights that women have fought for. I am pig sick of having to explain that male violence is a thing and that women are discriminated against because of our sex. I'm sick of having to explain why sex-segregated spaces and services, women's awards, sports, affirmative programmes and representation matter, as if these are new and strange ideas. It's like the women's rights movement never happened.

The article says: It is understood the nurse self-identified as a woman but had not been employed on that basis. He saw the patient only because of a clerical error.

So it appears this nurse did not have a GRC and therefore this was a clerical error. What if the HCP had had a GRC? What is the policy for those situations?

Trust policy is to consider seriously all requests for clinicians of a particular gender.

This is not reassuring, especially in light of the self-ID proposals.

I am leaving this thread as it's getting a bit too aggressive. But before I do, let me remind you all how bloody lucky you are to have the NHS. If you don't want to use it for whatever reason, that is your choice, there are plenty of private doctors around.

Agreed Sparkly I was just responding to the idea that because the NHS is 'free' women are supposed to suck it up. The proposals are very worrying.

I am talking about countries that I have lived inCanary. No need to be rude.

So you have asked all women in those countries have you?

I am not rude I am angry. You have decided that my trauma and right to choose is whinny. You have decided I should shut up and be grateful.

I find this area so tough to think about.

I believe the NHS should treat the whole patient, and a cervix comes with a brain attached, and first and foremost the NHS should do no harm to either the brain or the cervix. For some women this is going to mean not having someone do the test who they are afraid of.

However, men and transwomen both have the right not to be discriminated against in their work. Turning up to do a procedure and being told you are not acceptable purely because of your sex, gender or trans status (or race/disability) IS discrimination.

Therefore I would propose at system that allows people to register in advance if they are unable, for psychological reasons, to accept treatment from men/women/trans, or any other subsection of the population with a protected characteristic, that they wouldn't feel comfortable with treatment from and then managers can protect both patients and HCP from harm.

Xpost with Khalli demonstrating exactly what I meant!

Khali - I agree with you. Getting far too agressive. We don't know how lucky we are with our NHS.

If you don't want to use it for whatever reason, that is your choice, there are plenty of private doctors around

Yeah poor women (as the majority in this world are) should just suck it all up and be grateful.

Edwin. That happened to me too. Had a breast exam after seeing a male dr for something totally unrelated when I was a teenager

Me too, except when he tried I was too nervous and refused and left feeling silly and immature but I had no family history of breast problems at all and was pretty young so it was clearly an unnecessary exam. I've always requested a female nurse or doctor where possible ever since for anything relating to specifically female anatomy, although would not turn down emergency treatment from a man of course and would understand if told "I'm afraid we only have male staff available." I am not "transphobic" but I would be upset if I requested a female HCP and one arrived who was male and I was expected to pretend otherwise.

I recently had to have an internal exam whilst bleeding very, very heavily. I was not concerned about being with a man in that situation (my husband was in the room in any case) but he was young - and thus I assume inexperienced - and when he finished he said "you can get dressed now" without offering me anything by way of tissues or anything to clean myself with even though the blood was down to my knees after being poked about for a really long time. I had to ask him and he looked a bit confused and then bumbled about for ages being embarrassed as a consequence, making the experience even more humiliating, and then I thought - if I have to go through this again I would really like to be treated by someone who knows what it is to bleed from their womb and vagina and understands.

I am leaving this thread as it's getting a bit too aggressive. But before I do, let me remind you all how bloody lucky you are to have the NHS.

So your point remains that women have no right to boundaries, should be grateful to receive care on any terms, and men's right to choose should always be validated at the cost of women. Righto.

Oh and you're leaving the thread because you were disgreed with.

Oh yes, Khalli and your lecturing wasn't at all aggressive?

Of course we want to use the NHS, but we're not lucky to have it, we work and pay for it, and we can demand they give us the service we deserve.

She's left because you are right aggressive buggars this morning - jumping on her like that. And you know it!!

In an emergency I don't suppose it matters. You'd either be out of it from pain, concerned about your life to give a damn.

However smears, are an invasive procedure. And can be uncomfortable. Many women miss them now, so adding another barrier isn't going to help get them there.

Trans people deserve rights, but not if those rights trump other people's.

Inkanta please do report aggressive posts? No one has been anything but polite, and have debated the points Khalli made. Disagreement is not 'violence' for pete's sake. AIBU usually looks far worse than this.

If you don't want your points discussed then don't post them. Particularly if you're making highly contentious and gynephobic points.

I think that responding to women’s well articulated concerns with ‘quit your whining’ was an incredibly rude, ill thought out, dismissive attitude and was very likely to be responded to with aggression - not that it was, particularly. But women asserting their rights and boundaries are often dismissed as hysterical or overreacting so it’s not very surprising.

Actually Morphene I think there are currently exemptions to the equality act including that transgender people can be excluded from certain roles if the restrictions are 'a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.' You can't stop a transwoman being a nurse but that doesn't give them the right to examine a woman who is guaranteed a female HCP by the NHS's own policies.

No one jumped on anyone else.

No one is aggressive on this thread.

When I see aggression and abuse I call it out. Didn't happen here.

She's left because you are right aggressive buggars this morning - jumping on her like that. And you know it!!

She expects not to be jumped on when she told a rape survivor to "stop whining"? Do you think that's acceptable?

Yes us women must not show anger or aggression when faced with distress or trauma. We must shut up about it and not hurt mens feelings.