To think that women should be able to request a female doctor or nurse?

[Betti935]

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/the-female-nhs-nurse-i-asked-for-came-with-stubble-83rq9p0gg

Summary: A woman requested a female nurse to carry out her cervical smear test. When she arrived the nurse was clearly male (stubble, deep voice etc). When she questioned this, the nurse insisted that they were a woman because they were trans. The patient says she was made to feel like a bigot and in the end decided not to go ahead with the smear test.

Now in this case, the NHS Trust has apologised and said that the nurse did not handle the situation appropriately. However the government are planning to introduce into law the recommendations of the Women and Equalities Committee which include, not only allowing men to 'self-identify' as women without any medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, but also to get rid of the exemptions currently in place.

Currently, while biological males can legally 'become' women (following a diagnosis of gender dysphoria - there is already no requirement to have any hormone treatment or surgery), there are some limited exemptions in law:

“If a service provider provides single or separate sex services for women and men, or provides services differently to women and men, they should treat transsexual people according to the gender role in which they present. However, the Act does permit the service provider to provide a different service or exclude a person from the service, who is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or who has undergone, gender reassignment. This will only be lawful where the exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.” For example, it is currently legal for a group counselling session for female rape victims to exclude biological males if female clients would be not feel able to attend and participate in the group if they were present.

If this new legislation is passed and there are no exemptions allowing for transwomen (biological males) to be treated differently from biological women, there will be no way to protect vulnerable women who don't feel able to access rape services or medical services if they can't be sure of a female-only service.

This won't be like other rights conflicts (e.g. on sexual orientation versus religion) where test cases go to court and judgements are made because women won't exist as a separate protected group from transwomen.

HelpTheTigers I can understand your not wanting to wait but why would it be wasting NHS resources for you to be seen by a female?

I actually don't give a flying fuck if anyone finds me offensive.
I've been attacked, by males, and wish I'd have had the courage then to be as forthright as I am now.
I was assaulted by a dirty old man who was indeed a fully qualified doctor so the assumption that all male h c workers are good and pure is utter bollocks.

Just to reiterate my well being and that of other women is more important than anyone's feelings.
Hope that message is clear.

Just to reiterate my well being and that of other women is more important than anyone's feelings.
Hope that message is clear.

Emilybrontescorsett

I am so sorry you have been assaulted in any way.

"Just to reiterate my well being and that of other women is more important than anyone's feelings.
Hope that message is clear."

AGREE 1000%

italiangreyhound - I was meaning that I had an appointment at that time, would be walking out of it (i.e. wasting it in effect) and then taking up another appointment. I felt really guilty about wanting to see a female Gynae specialist so just got on with it. Hope that this makes more sense than my original comment!
The bugger hurt quite a lot, but probably entirely my own fault as I was unable to relax. I also felt that a female specialist may have a slightly better idea of just how uncomfortable and painful some procedures can be as she will have the same bits and pieces and may have been through similar experiences.

HelpTheTigers I kind of know what you mean but I still don't think it is wasting resources for you to get seen by a female if that is what you need. In future can you request female only for intimate procedures if that is what you want, then on one's time should feel wasted.

"I felt really guilty about wanting to see a female Gynae specialist" We should never feel guilty for wanting to see another female, ever.

"The bugger hurt quite a lot, but probably entirely my own fault..." Sorry he hurt you, but it is not your fault. you did not feel at ease. Not your fault.

"I also felt that a female specialist may have a slightly better idea of just how uncomfortable and painful some procedures can be as she will have the same bits and pieces and may have been through similar experiences." and I think you would be right. I think we women need to start demanding more, not less. Most of the people I have seen in the NHS have been females, female nurses, female doctors lately. Without women the NHS would crash.

So I think we women can afford to be a bit more picky. Together we've literally birthed' every doctor and nurse on the planet!

no one's time.

I agree with everything that you say italiangreyhound, and yes, I will definitely try to book a female gynae specialist for my next visit. I was just more concerned that I would be taking up another woman's urgent appointment if I arranged a second visit that in some ways, wasn't necessary (apart from to me!). Thanks for the boost though, you might just have helped me to find some assertiveness!

Katelyn Burns is now retweeting stories of people's problems with 'cis' medical practitioners behaving inappropriately, as though that in some way refutes the point. A number of the examples refer to male doctors behaving inappropriately towards women. That would be the point sailing way over their head, then.

Well quite. Some seem to miss the point deliberately at times. Its not about them being trans. Its about them being male. and pointing out all the times males have behaved inappropriately is just reinforcing the point that female people were making in the first place about wanting females/female only spaces!

I don't know if a female is definitely better. Yes, they do have the same bits and pieces, but the male gynaes I have had v the female midwives and doctors I've had, I think may tempt me towards male in the future.

My midwife is great, but when she examines it hurts. Not bad, but not ideal either. I thought it was the position I was in at first but my gynae did it too in exactly the same position and it was fine. Didn't hurt a bit. Same happened in hospital when I got moved: female midwife not really that comfortable, male gynae couldn't even feel.
Then the female ward doctor who had to discharge me was actually going to stick a speculum up there three days after the birth of my daughter and I had been cut as well. Fortunately I was prepared from reading forums online so I told her she could look and that was all. I mean what woman even considers that??? One without children no doubt.

That's not to say of course that you shouldn't be able to request a female. I think you should always be able to choose your HCP regardless. We're not animals, after all. But surely females can be inappropriate as well?

kikibo, I'm sure that there will be good, bad and indifferent staff, regardless of the gender carrying out the procedure. I used to have a female GP years ago. who was about as rough as anyone could possibly be but that was more down to her brusque personality, lack of common sense and sensitivity, and probably a shortfall in her up-to-date training too. I also had a male GP when I was about 13 who was very aggressive when talking about my periods, presumably because he was embarrassed. Some nurses are brilliant at taking blood and you can barely feel it while others may as well use a blunt chisel. In theory at least, I think that women should have a better idea of what discomfort and pain is caused during examinations and procedures, but of course some people are better than others. It would be lovely if everyone was as proficient as the best but I suspect that they rarely receive feedback about the pain levels involved. I certainly don't tell one nurse at my GP practice about just how bad she is when taking blood, but then again, I'm a wimp!

I kind of know what you mean but I still don't think it is wasting resources for you to get seen by a female if that is what you need.

It IS going to be wasting resources though if the NHS continue to send male people when a female has been requested. As people who request female people want actually female people obviously..so an appointment will be wasted if they are not sent the female people who were requested in the first place.

So yes, resources may be wasted by only as some people seemingly so not take the boundaries of patients seriously and think that everyone should just 'get over it'

Resources need not be wasted though. If companies start realizing that biological sex is a real thing and that it matters in certain parts of life. Something one might think the NHS should know well enough..

Misread that Post still stands though. resources may be wasted, but that is not the fault of the patients who are requesting same sex HCPs. Its the fault of whoever is randomly deciding that the patients need to get over their want/need of a same sex HCP.

BatShite "It IS going to be wasting resources though if the NHS continue to send male people when a female has been requested." Completely agree.

@thebewilderness "It is a violation of NHS policy for a patients request for a same sex practitioner not to be honored. That is why they apologized."

The nurse in this case was employed as a male but I wonder what would happen if the nurse had been employed as a female, had been through a process of the 2004 Gender Recognition Act, and now had a female birth certificate. I know biologically they would still be male but legally they would be female.

The patient can still say no to treatment at that time.

I wonder what the implications would be? Would they be just the same as turning down a male doctor, or worse, or better, or the same as saying no to any other treatment (in terms of getting a new appointment).

The patient could walk out, but would they feel better feigning illness or something, saying they got their dates mixed up and it was wrong time in the cycle? To avoid embarrassment of anyone? (Yes, I know that the embarrassment factor is not important really but English people like me are quite prone to embarrassment, need to be more assertive!

HelpTheTigers "Thanks for the boost though, you might just have helped me to find some assertiveness!" And you may have helped me too!

This whole thing is a mess.

I wonder if women need to focus on shoring up legal rights to refuse intimate contact with anyone for any purpose and that could cover medical rights, shared showers, whatever. I remember shared showers at school and I would hate to think kids now to face this!

The trans movement seems to have gone around changing laws and not shouting about it until it is too late, would women be able to do that too? Any thoughts? @Datun @Emilybrontescorsett @Ereshkigal

Italian

I wonder if women need to focus on shoring up legal rights to refuse intimate contact with anyone for any purpose

The feminist group A Woman's Place UK are trying to push that exact point.

There are already exceptions in place but they are not being used because the description is so woolly. And culturally, people either don't know about them, or don't feel able to invoke them.

You can exclude transwomen if it is "a proportionate means to a legitimate aim".

Because the trans marketing machine is so effective, people are not doing that.

For me, the practice should be that if you are uncomfortable in, say, the Marks & Spencer changing rooms, you slap the exemptions down on the counter and say get that man out.

But first of all, the exemptions need to be ratified, secondly service providers need to be completely confident in using them and thirdly women, everywhere, need to be aware of them.

It needs to be completely culturally acceptable.

A Woman's Place is making some headway. Just Phillips, for instance, retweeted the five points (screenshot) saying they sound perfectly reasonable to her. Predictably, she got an almighty TRA backlash.

But they are eminently doable and practical. But more importantly, they are not emotive.

m.facebook.com/womansplaceuk/?locale2=en_GB#!/womansplaceuk/photos/a.496713437349514.1073741828.494295627591295/539779636376227/?type=3&source=54

Yes, Datun is right. Nothing to add except this excellent article from Fair Play for Women which lays out how we can use the EA to protect women's rights and what practical actions we should take. There is a link to a factsheet which can be given to organisations, MPs etc.

fairplayforwomen.com/equality-act-2010_womens-rights

Taking things to a potential extreme here, I understand that the wording of the rape laws in the UK use the term "man" in various places, presumably because only men have a penis and rape by definition is penetration using one's penis. So if a man identifies as a woman under the proposed law, will that mean they can't be charged with rape but only sexual assault?

The only thing I can add is what I said previously.
Words along the lines of I want to be seen by a woman who was registered at birth as female.

I think it's the old adage that on the one hand you have people saying why don't women complain/make their feelings known if they don't like something.
Yet on the other hand people then trying to belittle women who do speak up and labelling them over sensitive and transphobic.

Sorry, not to sidetrack with a personal monologue, but just to say, Datun - thanks for taking the time and for posting the link to the trans widow thread. When you mentioned the need for a blood-pressure cuff, I was expecting it to be “shocking” but it was mainly a heartbreaking read. I don’t have kids or financial dependence to consider and have always had what most would describe as “vanilla” heterosexual relationships without any porn or role play etc., so I couldn’t imagine trying to maintain a relationship of any sort with these men from the moment a pair of women’s knickers or porn was mentioned. Perhaps that’s why the cross-dresser knickers thread didn’t seem too appalling to me - quite apart from thinking a urologist of either sex wouldn’t be phased by male patients who get a thrill from wearing women’s underwear, I think from mid teens, when overnight it suddenly seemed to be the done thing that everyone was expected to be “bi-curious” (really can’t remember what term we were using it was so many years ago) at parties and experimenting with sexuality and gender, I happily stayed on the sidelines messing about with substances but not sexuality, and “learned” that I was “vanilla” and most other people were into/open to stuff that didn’t interest me and not to think of it as “a big deal”.

Reading the thread and the subsequent blogs and articles it led me to hasn’t changed my mind to the extent that I always objected to self-ID, have never bought into the idea that you can change sex, be “born into the wrong body”, or have the “psychology” of someone with a differently sexed body, and have always thought penises should be kept out of all female-only spaces. I suppose what it has done is given me a different thinking on “transphobia” and the threat posed. The beliefs I have just outlined would have always had me labelled as “transphobic” I’m sure but obviously I would (in fact did in this thread already when I said I would have been upset to have a trans nurse turn up when I’d requested a female) say "I’m not transphobic” in the sense of having a fear or dislike of transpeople as a group. But I have a bit more of an understanding now about the “no special treatment for trans even as hospital patients " sentiment, and the strong aversion to legitimising a “movement” trying to force private predilections into the mainstream public domain and encouraging the “conversion” of young people who would otherwise just be doing what the rest of my peers were doing when we were teens - exploring and experimenting with gender, sexuality and drugs but most definitely not committing to irreversible surgery and hormone therapy.

I have seen explanations for trans relating to hormones in the mother's womb, and on that thread I see there are some references to a mother's treatments of their sons. I'm sure I'm not the first to have noticed that if/when this does all blow up in our faces, it will somehow have been women's fault.

So if a man identifies as a woman under the proposed law, will that mean they can't be charged with rape but only sexual assault?

No they are charged with rape as a woman (charges against Brannen were dropped due to lack of evidence).

and the strong aversion to legitimising a “movement” trying to force private predilections into the mainstream public domain and encouraging the “conversion” of young people who would otherwise just be doing what the rest of my peers were doing when we were teens -

And that's it in a nutshell mirialis.

The hijacking of men with gender dysphoria to legitimise a fetish and dupe the public into accepting it. Coupled with medicating gender nonconforming children.

When I mentioned blood pressure, it's because I was infuriated on behalf of those women. The abuse and blatant gaslighting outraged me.

If these things make me, or any other person, transphobic, then I guess you are looking at an awful lot of transphobes.

Most people are simply unaware of the full extent of the implications. And the darker side of transgenderism.

Which is the way transactivists definitely want to keep it.

Hence their hashtag NoDebate.

Most people are simply unaware of the full extent of the implications. And the darker side of transgenderism

On the Indie and Guardian front - I know that they have no money (the former in particular) to pay for "proper journalism". If you can write (and anyone can see with their own eyes it doesn’t have to be well-written - I find the Indie unreadable these days), and are prepared to do it for little or no money, it’s not difficult to get published. They don't have the ad revenue stream of the Daily Mail nor the subscription and cash backing that the Times and Telegraph have.

Much to the horror of many of my friends, I do actually have a Times subscription and they do publish much more trans-critical articles because they know it won’t offend their paying readers (quite the opposite). However, I’ve never seen an article discussing the sexual fetish side of transgenderism and I don’t know if that is because they are no less clueless about it than most of the rest of us or if that is deemed a step too far in the current climate.

I don’t know if this has already been done to death and got nowhere but, if you know people who can write a half-decent article, it might be worth repeat-submitting to the Indie/Guardian - though I guess people are scared to say it even if people are prepared to publish it, so would have to be under a non-traceable pen-name.

Certainly, if someone could face it, it would be good to see a “trans widow” account in that anonymous “My life in sex” series in The Guardian.

They pride themselves on bold and challenging journalism to encourage “donation” instead of subscription - it would be good to see them putting their money where their mouth is.

Certainly, if someone could face it, it would be good to see a “trans widow” account in that anonymous “My life in sex” series in The Guardian.

I agree it would be incredible to see these women get a voice. And not be vilified for their confusion and bewilderment.

But your assessment of whether it is a bridge too far, I believe is correct.

People are very wary about calling transgenderism a fetish, quite rightly, because that is only a part of it.

I certainly started off thinking it was a very small minority, but I have since changed my mind. It seems more prevalent than I originally realised. Or maybe people are just more comfortable revealing their motives now.

Even within the community there seems to be a bit of a schism. With men who have gender dysphoria trying to distance themselves from autogynephiles.

Which, in turn, does rather lift the lid off it.

I hope it does get acknowledged. Because at the moment we are being gaslighted.

Certainly, if someone could face it, it would be good to see a “trans widow” account in that anonymous “My life in sex” series in The Guardian.

It definitely would.