To think that women should be able to request a female doctor or nurse?

[Betti935]

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/the-female-nhs-nurse-i-asked-for-came-with-stubble-83rq9p0gg

Summary: A woman requested a female nurse to carry out her cervical smear test. When she arrived the nurse was clearly male (stubble, deep voice etc). When she questioned this, the nurse insisted that they were a woman because they were trans. The patient says she was made to feel like a bigot and in the end decided not to go ahead with the smear test.

Now in this case, the NHS Trust has apologised and said that the nurse did not handle the situation appropriately. However the government are planning to introduce into law the recommendations of the Women and Equalities Committee which include, not only allowing men to 'self-identify' as women without any medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, but also to get rid of the exemptions currently in place.

Currently, while biological males can legally 'become' women (following a diagnosis of gender dysphoria - there is already no requirement to have any hormone treatment or surgery), there are some limited exemptions in law:

“If a service provider provides single or separate sex services for women and men, or provides services differently to women and men, they should treat transsexual people according to the gender role in which they present. However, the Act does permit the service provider to provide a different service or exclude a person from the service, who is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or who has undergone, gender reassignment. This will only be lawful where the exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.” For example, it is currently legal for a group counselling session for female rape victims to exclude biological males if female clients would be not feel able to attend and participate in the group if they were present.

If this new legislation is passed and there are no exemptions allowing for transwomen (biological males) to be treated differently from biological women, there will be no way to protect vulnerable women who don't feel able to access rape services or medical services if they can't be sure of a female-only service.

This won't be like other rights conflicts (e.g. on sexual orientation versus religion) where test cases go to court and judgements are made because women won't exist as a separate protected group from transwomen.

I think the Scottish Government also need to see that thread, given they are asking the general public:

Should legal gender recognition stop being a ground of divorce or dissolution?

Emilybrontescorsett "Words along the lines of I want to be seen by a woman who was registered at birth as female." Excellent.

Can I ask, if anyone knows what the difference between self-identification in England and in Ireland is? I've been told self id has not caused a problem in Ireland, and I wonder if the midwife/nurse/prison whatever females only angle is for Ireland, have there been stories in the press like male going into female prison etc, or how does it differ?

Thanks

@Datun @Ereshkigal @mirialis

Italiangreyhound

That question is often asked. It's a tricky one because, apparently the culture is completely different.

The trans population is minuscule and gender roles, from what is being said, are more ingrained and therefore they don't have the culture where transwomen can walk into women's bathrooms, etc. Apparently it would not be tolerated.

They don't allow women's prisons to accept men, either. However they identify.

Data, so far is unavailable, but I believe there are requests for it to be gathered now.

But it's not comparing like with like. They don't seem to have the militant trans issue that we have here.

@Datun thank you. I wonder whether any of this is recorded anywhere, like the fact males in Ireland who identify as trans do not go to female prisons. News articles or anything?

Thank you again.

Italiangreyhound

Currently prisons are a bit of a hot potato. Because the GRC is very important in terms of whether you get transferred.

Unlike the bathroom debate, which seems to be relying on the equality act.

So the government wanting to eliminate the criteria under which you get the GRC is very important in specifically in terms of prisons.

There are several women on the website FairPlay for Women who have worked relentlessly to get statistics. As, unbelievably, they were not being gathered.

They are the women who unearthed the fact that the rate of sex offenders amongst the trans prison population is much higher than average, for instance.

They are forensic in their research (legal bods).

Their website is well worth a look at.

You can put keywords in the search box for different bits.

fairplayforwomen.com/

Thanks @Datun yes I know the website.

I am sure have read the 2015 letter to Maria Miller that highlights why makes may wish to join a female prison.

I am sure have read the 2015 letter to Maria Miller that highlights why makes may wish to join a female prison.

Oh yes. It's still unbelievable to me that anyone would think otherwise. Much less a politician. And a female one, at that.

@Datun, yes indeed. The idea that a good place to put sexually violent males was a place with lots of imprisoned women is like some sort of sick, twisted fantasy for just the sort of violent offender we are discussing.

It's just so very vile, naive and stupid of the people charged with those women's security.

I hope any women incarcerated with males starts a sort of USA style Class action suit. A no win no fee. That would certainly serve the prison service right, although, of course, the tax payers would pay it.

The government needs to make laws that protect people - including when they are in prison. And that includes trans prisoners. But not at the expense of females.

Sorry, rant over!

I'd be very happy to have my money go towards a class action suit, as women have a lot more to lose than money.

Also happy to help crowdfund a lawsuit.