To think that women should be able to request a female doctor or nurse?

[Betti935]

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/the-female-nhs-nurse-i-asked-for-came-with-stubble-83rq9p0gg

Summary: A woman requested a female nurse to carry out her cervical smear test. When she arrived the nurse was clearly male (stubble, deep voice etc). When she questioned this, the nurse insisted that they were a woman because they were trans. The patient says she was made to feel like a bigot and in the end decided not to go ahead with the smear test.

Now in this case, the NHS Trust has apologised and said that the nurse did not handle the situation appropriately. However the government are planning to introduce into law the recommendations of the Women and Equalities Committee which include, not only allowing men to 'self-identify' as women without any medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, but also to get rid of the exemptions currently in place.

Currently, while biological males can legally 'become' women (following a diagnosis of gender dysphoria - there is already no requirement to have any hormone treatment or surgery), there are some limited exemptions in law:

“If a service provider provides single or separate sex services for women and men, or provides services differently to women and men, they should treat transsexual people according to the gender role in which they present. However, the Act does permit the service provider to provide a different service or exclude a person from the service, who is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or who has undergone, gender reassignment. This will only be lawful where the exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.” For example, it is currently legal for a group counselling session for female rape victims to exclude biological males if female clients would be not feel able to attend and participate in the group if they were present.

If this new legislation is passed and there are no exemptions allowing for transwomen (biological males) to be treated differently from biological women, there will be no way to protect vulnerable women who don't feel able to access rape services or medical services if they can't be sure of a female-only service.

This won't be like other rights conflicts (e.g. on sexual orientation versus religion) where test cases go to court and judgements are made because women won't exist as a separate protected group from transwomen.

Was it acceptable to you Emily?
It's up to each individual to decide who they feel comfortable with touching their bodies. Most people differentiate between emergency care and 'intimate' care. I think most women consider a smear test to be very intimate and personal, so it's understandable they may feel comfortable with a male HCP in one situation, but not another. Incidentally, this goes both ways.Some men prefer male HCP's /carers for care of a personal nature.

Was it acceptable to you Emily?
Didn't really have much choice!

That wasn't the question.

I can only hope your own poor children never experience gender dysphoria

I hope that my child doesn't have gender dysphoria (or any kind of dysphoria, quite frankly), especially not now and certainly not at any point in the bleak looking future.

Of course nobody wanted their child to be gender dysphoric but at least in the past you could get them appropriate counselling and mental health support. Sadly mental health support for children with gender dysphoria is now becoming more and more difficult to access because it is now 'transphobic'. The result of this is already vulnerable children and teens being left without any support. Damn straight I would not want any child of mine to have gender dysphoria in this mess.

Perhaps you could have a think about that whilst you are accusing us of being toxic and bigoted.

It literally does not affect your life, but you are all off your faces with fear and bigotry.

Of course it affects other people! It affects women like the article describes. It affects women in prisons, nursing homes, refuges and those who want to change in privacy. I'm sick to death of hearing about "gender dysphoria"' and this born in the wrong body bullshit. Trans identified males are typically either gay or they have a sexual fetish called autogynephilia. They're not women and never will be.

4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

Emily what you seem to miss is that of course, in an emergency situation most of us are fine with a man. But in a triggering situation which smear tests are for me, I would like to choose a woman.
.

And let me be quite clear about my first smear experience as a 16 yr old. He expressed his interest in my sexual life, asked if I enjoyed it, how 'tight' it felt and if I wanted him to feel if it was normal. I got a 'free' breast exam and then the speculum.

So now, damn fucking right I'd like a woman

Edwin, that's similar to my first experience too. I didn't report it.

Rogue smears are hard aren't they x

I had a male gynaecologist when I lived abroad. He carried out all of the ivf procedures, operated on me, carried out all manner of tests, which were far more painful and intrusive than a smear test. However, I had a professional relationship with this man. I trusted him. I wouldn’t want to be faced with a male for a smear test. That is entirely my choice.

I had a male gynae fix my prolapse. He spent hours up to his elbows in my fanny in the most dignified, professional un embarrassing way. I spent many hours with him shining a torch up my nether regions but his bedside manner was such that we might just as well have been discussing my nose

Rogue I agree there are jobs and situations where birth gender needs to prevail

I was sexually abused throughout my entire childhood and was also assaulted at the age of 16 during my first smear test, so don't you dare fucking tell me that I'm overreacting if I don't want some hairy handed fucking man in a dress to even suggest he's a woman and has a right to take a smear test.

How anxious do you think a women will feel if there is now the very real possibility that she could be put in the situation where she has to refuse treatment by a man and can be treated as a bigot as a result? Which is exactly what you handmaidens are doing on here.

Don't you fucking dare belittle the many women and girls who have suffered at the hands of men or even those who have been lucky enough to have had healthy childhoods, but just prefer a woman to treat them. You are the fucking bigots!

liminality maybe you should think why so many women are fearful.

Maybe you know why.

Please do not belittle women for wanting to make a choice about who provides intimate care for them. And don't lecture about having trans-identified children, it really is becoming so common now I think many of us will be facing this on the future. So don't belittled the idea that this is something many parents are going to face, alongside many children and teens fuelled by a massive weight of stories, information nd misinformation on the internet.

It literally does not affect your life

If you think that treating transwomen the same as natal women in all circumstances “literally” does not affect the lives of women then you don’t understand the situation at all. You’re far too busy being woke and liberal to see what’s going on in front of your eyes.

And no one is saying trans people are “the devil”, just that where a female nurse is requested, that nurse should not have a penis.

I think it's the seeming cognitive dissonance that is distressing.

If a man, presenting as a man, walks in and says 'I've been sent to do your smear test; I hope that is ok', then I'd likely not mind too much as the situation has been presented in a way that makes sense to me - appearance matches reality.

If a man presenting as a woman walked in and acting like nothing was unusual, saying 'But I am female' when queried, I'd be less inclined to say yes; my first thought would be 'To me you seem at best deluded, at worst lying, and I don't want a lying or deluded person doing this'.

Notably, I think I'd be fine if the man presenting as woman gave a few words of explanation along the lines of 'I'm Alex and I indentify as female; I've been sent to do your smear test. I realise that I may not be what you were expecting, so please let me know if you won't feel comfortable and I can fetch another member of staff for your procedure.' I think I'd be happy with that, because I'd be confident that I had a HCP who was professional, realistic and prioritising my feelings.

I think the patient in this case was complaining about the HCP's manner rather than them personally, which bears me out.

I agree with LaContessa. Any HCP who prioritises their own need for justification of their life choices over the comfort and wellbeing of their patient, is not someone that I want anywhere near me.

HCPs see patients at their most vulnerable times - whether that be through accident or illness, or just dealing with routine examinations in areas that not all patients are comfortable with. Sensitivity is an absolute must.

Every aspect of this offends me. Living/feeling/identifying/presenting as a woman. It basically means taking the piss out of women and usually performing horrible stereotypes of women. It's simply black face.Women is not a costume to take on and off and nor is it a feeling in a man's head.

This article has made me feel sick. How dare he and how dare the hospital allow it. I imagine many women would have struggled to say No. I know I would have when I was younger.

imagine many women would have struggled to say No. I know I would have when I was younger

That's what is so frightening. The fact that so many younger women will struggle to say no, then end up feeling extremely distressed afterwards. They will have the worry that if they seek help regarding those feelings, they will be dismissed or called a bigot. i wonder how many of the women he has treated have agreed to it because of fear of being thought of as a bigot? But sure that doesn't matter so long as he can wear a dress and get validation..

This was not just predictable but predicted. for those on here who have been assaulted. The NHS will eventually have to take responsibility for this ridiculous situation.

I had a male midwife when I was in labour with my first child. I really didn’t like it but was worried about seeming prejudiced so didn’t say anything.

That's awful Big. When you're at your most vulnerable and yet more worried about what other people think, than your own comfort. Anyone that doesn't believe that women are socialised to accept whatever society tells them they should is in denial. Imagine how even more women will be afraid to say no, when it's a man in a dress.