To think that women should be able to request a female doctor or nurse?

[Betti935]

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/the-female-nhs-nurse-i-asked-for-came-with-stubble-83rq9p0gg

Summary: A woman requested a female nurse to carry out her cervical smear test. When she arrived the nurse was clearly male (stubble, deep voice etc). When she questioned this, the nurse insisted that they were a woman because they were trans. The patient says she was made to feel like a bigot and in the end decided not to go ahead with the smear test.

Now in this case, the NHS Trust has apologised and said that the nurse did not handle the situation appropriately. However the government are planning to introduce into law the recommendations of the Women and Equalities Committee which include, not only allowing men to 'self-identify' as women without any medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, but also to get rid of the exemptions currently in place.

Currently, while biological males can legally 'become' women (following a diagnosis of gender dysphoria - there is already no requirement to have any hormone treatment or surgery), there are some limited exemptions in law:

“If a service provider provides single or separate sex services for women and men, or provides services differently to women and men, they should treat transsexual people according to the gender role in which they present. However, the Act does permit the service provider to provide a different service or exclude a person from the service, who is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or who has undergone, gender reassignment. This will only be lawful where the exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.” For example, it is currently legal for a group counselling session for female rape victims to exclude biological males if female clients would be not feel able to attend and participate in the group if they were present.

If this new legislation is passed and there are no exemptions allowing for transwomen (biological males) to be treated differently from biological women, there will be no way to protect vulnerable women who don't feel able to access rape services or medical services if they can't be sure of a female-only service.

This won't be like other rights conflicts (e.g. on sexual orientation versus religion) where test cases go to court and judgements are made because women won't exist as a separate protected group from transwomen.

There are millions of women worldwide who do not have access to smear tests and all the other privileges that most of us have here, so I think you should quit your whining personally.

Now that's pure goadiness and unbelievably insensitive.

You seriously believe a woman who is Jewish or Muslim or has any other reason for not being able to accept intimate care from a male as you happily can needs to be told to quit whining and get her knickers off, she's lucky to be cared for at all?

How does that fit with the values of the NHS exactly? Or with the Equality Act? Or with general principles of care for any organisation? And that this is a change to the care women have always had the right to expect?

And lets be honest, the ONLY reason you feel she should be grateful for her privileges and be permitted healthcare at all is because you feel that validating a man's personal feelings and choices is way more important than any distress to the woman's feelings? Better to remove the care from the selfish, ridiculous woman than maybe put a few boundaries around a man's personal choices?

Have you seriously no idea how misogynist that is? In consent, no trumps yes. It doesn't matter how happy you are with male HCPs, it's irrelevant. Not all women are. Their consent matters.

Gynaecology seems like a strange career choice for someone affected by gender dysphoria. Wouldn’t it be terribly “triggering”?

Yes good point. If you have gender dysphoria and really want a vagina, then surely it would be really distressing being faced, all the live long day, with all these oh so lucky 'cis' women who already have their very own natural one?

Oh for goodness sakes.

khalli, i know very many women from countries where health car is not freely available, many of my family included. Many would also insist on female HCP. Please dont suggest that poverty means women dont/shouldnt have bodily autonomy/boundaries. Many would go without if a TIM was their only option

@khalliwali

There are millions of women worldwide who do not have access to smear tests and all the other privileges that most of us have here, so I think you should quit your whining personally.

How is a woman who is traumatised by rape and does not wish her intimate procedures done by biological males "whining"?

How is ANY woman stating and maintaining her boundaries "whining"?

I really cannot wrap my head round how easily female trauma is dismissed simply to be able to assuage the feelings of men with mental health issues or fetishes.

There are millions of women worldwide who do not have access to smear tests and all the other privileges that most of us have here, so I think you should quit your whining personally.

So what is your opinion on TIM HCPs wanting to carry out procedures on women who have specifically asked for a female?

Had a breast exam after seeing a male dr for something totally unrelated
Me too, only he was a consultant. Did it to other women I know as well. Was in my early 20s not confident. Reluctant to go to docs with any serious health issues now.

I come from a Muslim country (hence my username) and let me tell you that it seems to be less of an issue there than in the UK. I feel that people take the NHS for granted. Where I come from people are grateful for the medical help they are given, they appreciate the expertise of the medical staff, whatever gender they are.

There are loads of women who don't give a monkeys whether they have a male or female HCP.

And just as many who do.

We have the absolute right to decide.

Women aren't cattle. We are adult human beings. With agency. And rights over our own bodies and who looks at them.

I am in charge of my own body thank you very much. I decide who looks at it and who doesn't. My terms. And they are not negotiable.

Someone else, especially a man, does not decide that he can challenge that.

On what bloody basis can that ever be acceptable?

A smear test is not a good time to feel tense, it's painful enough when you are relaxed! I know that I've found it more painful when it's performed by a man, and I've always assumed it's due to me being more tense (when a woman does it at least I know she's been in exactly the same position as me).

I'm lucky enough not to find it traumatic, I can't imagine how much more painful it would be then. No one should have to go through avoidable trauma and discomfort just to save the health professionals feelings.

Also Khalli, are you suggesting that women in developing countries don't, or shouldn't, have their own personal boundaries which mean that they would want a female to carry out an intimate examination.

Women with PTSD are 'whining', but men's gender identity must be respected and validated even at the expense of vulnerable women. How can this be anything other than good old fashioned misogyny. Yet the woman haters typing this shit actually believe they are the progressive ones.

I feel that people take the NHS for granted. Where I come from people are grateful for the medical help they are given, they appreciate the expertise of the medical staff, whatever gender they are.

I could not careless about gender.
I do care about the sex of the person that is giving me an intimate exam.

Why did you reduce my rape to me whinning Khalli?

No, I'm not suggesting that at all. I am just pointing out that it is more of an issue in this privileged country.

Gynaecology seems like a strange career choice for someone affected by gender dysphoria.

Under current politics, it's apparently transphobic to say that gender dysphoria is part of being trans and many people who are trans do not have dysphoria. Since the small population of young children who show gender dysphoria, and the current explosion in population of teenaged girls with severe gender dysphoria can't be said to be part of this group, it must be the large group of men who transition in adulthood, many of whom (some researchers suggest all of whom) have autogynephilia.

No, I'm not suggesting that at all. I am just pointing out that it is more of an issue in this privileged country.

So instead of stopping women in this country from having a choice and calling them names why not fight for the women in other countries to have a choice in what sex their HCP is?

I agree khali, that many people take the NHS for granted. Expecting same sex HCP is not an example of that

The NHS themselves set a precedence for this. They acknowledge the need for sex segregated wards with various policies and do in fact allow you to request a specific sex HCP/ chaperone. It might not always work in practice but just because the NHS is free at the point of care it doesn't mean you have to just accept anything.

I am just pointing out that it is more of an issue in this privileged country.

Your point is that women are over privileged for having boundaries and must now surrender them to validate a man no matter how they feel. Basically women having boundaries (for any reason, including trauma) is 'whining', and women's consent is unimportant.

As Datun said above: women are not cattle.

No, I'm not suggesting that at all. I am just pointing out that it is more of an issue in this privileged country.

Why on earth does that viewpoint result in you pointing out the privilege of the woman, and not the, far greater, privilege of the man instead?

...why not fight for the women in other countries to have a choice in what sex their HCP is?

Because it's not such an issue is other countries that I have lived in. As I have said, they are just grateful to get proper medical care. They look at a doctor and see a doctor, not a male or a female or a trans, ffs.

Have been thinking about this. I have not suffered rape or any severe sexual assault. When I was in labour for days, I had every Tom, Dick and Harry looking up my fanny and the person who hauled my baby out with BBQ tongs with one leg up on the table was a bloke.

But a smear test, or even the sweeps I had before labour, are different when I think about it. You are completely there in the moment, you are nervous, you are tense, you have had time to think about it, you are aware of what it involves, and you are very aware that someone is shining a big light and sticking a cold bit of metal up there. Tbh with all of my smears I have never specifically asked for a woman because I just assumed it would be a woman. If I was faced with a man, I would be a bit put on the back foot and maybe a bit uncomfortable, but I wouldn't complain because I hadn't asked for a woman. If I had asked for a woman and was faced with a TIM I would ask for someone different.

Someone up thread mentioned massage. I definitely wouldn't want to be massaged in a spa by a man. Is that discriminatory?

Sorry, that is just a lot of me rambling about things there, just trying to think about what I think of all this, as someone who is lucky enough not to have suffered trauma at the hands of a man.

No, I'm not suggesting that at all. I am just pointing out that it is more of an issue in this privileged country

Well of course it is khali, in the uk we dont have to focus on getting sanitary protection, birth control, fight fgm or child marriage ...it does invalidate it as a legitimate infringement of womens rights

If a man wants to be treated as a woman then why do they not have their penises removed?

I am probably a double bigot in the eyes of some of you.

I don't mind transwomen who have undergone the complete transition as used to be necessary including hormone treatments and sex change.

I cannot respect someone's choice to become a woman if they still have a penis and testicles, I just can't

Because it's not such an issue is other countries that I have lived in. As I have said, they are just grateful to get proper medical care. They look at a doctor and see a doctor, not a male or a female or a trans, ffs.

Have you asked them?
You are assuming they dont mind because they do not speak up.

It many countries women are not allowed choice. They are not allowed a voice. So the are unable to speak up.

How very small minded you are.