To think that women should be able to request a female doctor or nurse?

[Betti935]

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/the-female-nhs-nurse-i-asked-for-came-with-stubble-83rq9p0gg

Summary: A woman requested a female nurse to carry out her cervical smear test. When she arrived the nurse was clearly male (stubble, deep voice etc). When she questioned this, the nurse insisted that they were a woman because they were trans. The patient says she was made to feel like a bigot and in the end decided not to go ahead with the smear test.

Now in this case, the NHS Trust has apologised and said that the nurse did not handle the situation appropriately. However the government are planning to introduce into law the recommendations of the Women and Equalities Committee which include, not only allowing men to 'self-identify' as women without any medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, but also to get rid of the exemptions currently in place.

Currently, while biological males can legally 'become' women (following a diagnosis of gender dysphoria - there is already no requirement to have any hormone treatment or surgery), there are some limited exemptions in law:

“If a service provider provides single or separate sex services for women and men, or provides services differently to women and men, they should treat transsexual people according to the gender role in which they present. However, the Act does permit the service provider to provide a different service or exclude a person from the service, who is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or who has undergone, gender reassignment. This will only be lawful where the exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.” For example, it is currently legal for a group counselling session for female rape victims to exclude biological males if female clients would be not feel able to attend and participate in the group if they were present.

If this new legislation is passed and there are no exemptions allowing for transwomen (biological males) to be treated differently from biological women, there will be no way to protect vulnerable women who don't feel able to access rape services or medical services if they can't be sure of a female-only service.

This won't be like other rights conflicts (e.g. on sexual orientation versus religion) where test cases go to court and judgements are made because women won't exist as a separate protected group from transwomen.

April fundamentally the root of it is that it's not about the HCP's perspective or experience, it's about the patient's. That the HCP does it / sees it every day can be irrelevant to the feelings of the patient who is in an uncomfortable situation and one that perhaps they are not used to. It's not about how often the practitioner sees or does something, it's about the perception of the patient, each of whom will have a different set of perspectives for all kinds of reasons.

PeanutButterCheesecake
Agree.
He is a biological man.

Now I could just about get to accepting a fully transitioned transwoman as in, no male sex organs, no male features, breast consteuction, taking female hormones and is now legally a woman. But get that others may disagree with me.

What pisses me off the most is that now it's self identify. So wake up one morning and feel like wearing a dress? Oh I'm a woman today. But tomorrow I'll be male. It's called non binary gender fluidity dahrling.

Here was me thinking that sex is a biological binary and gender non binary should mean some common sense about not being constrained by gender stereotypes e.g. if you want to play witj 'boy toys' as a girl go for it / if you want to be a bloke in a dress then go for it, but your sex remains the same.

I have a friend who identifies as non binary. She's a woman. But some says she's more androgynous and butch. She's still a woman though.

Greypaw

Exactly. I'm sure there are many women, me included, who say to themselves this is probably the fifth smear test this person has done today.

Framing it mentally to mitigate the, quite normal, vulnerable feelings when one is exposing their genitalia to strangers.

Ah, here comes the homophobia. But if you wouldn’t mind sharing a changing room/hospital ward/having a lesbian HCP then what’s the difference?! Erm, the difference are lesbians are WOMEN and MEN are not. It’s not about sexuality or gender identity, it’s about sex.

I believe health services can refuse treatment/to give an alternative HCP if you object on the ground a of race (and rightly so). What worries me is that women refusing MTT HCPs might be treated in the same way if the NHS’s Policy is that they are women.

I found this arrogance of this HCP astonishing - he didn’t take a chaperone with him, so he and the clinic regarded him as female for the purposes of conducting an intimate test. When she rightly complains it’s as “admin error”. No it fucking wasn’t, you just got caught this time.

april do you think lesbian should should use men’s facilities and gay men should use women’s? If not, why not as you seem to think we should segregate based on who people are attracted to.

Yes WTAF we must write to anyone and everyone. Short, succinct letters. And emphasising the point that many MILLIONS of (bio) women sadly have MH problems and attempt or suceed at suicide entirely because of abusive/ sexually abusive experiences, and that this needs to be treated with as much respect as a trans person's MH problems.

I have to say it’s never really bothered me whether dr/nurses are male or female - they’ve seen you all before. BUT it does bother some people and they should have the right to choose. Choice applies to everyone not just people with overly militant prsssure groups behind them. It just needs to be simple - if someone wants to be a woman they need to have hormone therapy and penis removed/inverted until that point they are a man. Having areas of grey causes issues across the board.

I have no problem with a male HCP caring for me. Ive had plenty involved in various bits of my care through my life however I agree with the previous poster in that I don't like the lies and delusions that go along with the HCP in the OP.

I don't want any HCP who is deluded to that extent participating in my care.

Oh look, another anti-trans thread. Has anyone actually got anything original to say about this?

It just needs to be simple - if someone wants to be a woman they need to have hormone therapy and penis removed/inverted until that point they are a man. Having areas of grey causes issues across the board

Still not acceptable to many woman and that person is still Male.

Well you wouldn't know would you, Deepan, if you're hiding it

They are still male. They were born male, raised with male privilege, have male muscle mass and physique. Plastic surgery, no matter how extreme, does not make you a woman.

Anyone who wants to retain the choice of who does your smear or if you believe that women need women only services, rape centres, refuges, sports, scholarships needs to write to their MP and object to the proposed changes to the GRA.

Because we are not talking about those trans people who really do transition here, who actually go through a medical process. Those who have a GRC. These people are already protected under law. What we are talking about is any man being able to self identify as a woman. If we allow that to happen then you won't have a choice and it's already happening. These are men that retain their penis in women only spaces, taking away your choice to have them there or not.

And as so very often you won't take this as truth from a woman, then read some of the articles written by the wonderful Miranda Yardley who is a trans woman. She believes that these amendments are wrong for women, children and transwomen.

Women and girls are allowed boundaries. There is a huge push against women and girls privacy and dignity at the moment.

Women and girls deserve privacy and dignity and to retain their hard won rights.

I totally agree with this. I've a long gynae history which culminated in a hysterectomy last year. I have dealt with both male and female staff and all have been totally competent, but given the choice, when you're legs in the air with someone rummaging around your cervix, I'd prefer a woman.

And by a woman I mean a woman. Not a transwoman.

Oh look, another anti-trans thread. Has anyone actually got anything original to say about this?

Oh look, another plopper.

Oh look, another anti-trans thread

Er, no, if you'd bothered to read it? It's a discussion on vulnerable women having their right to choose a female HCP removed actually, and if you feel that women even discussing this matter is 'anti trans' and shameful then there really is a problem.

@DeepanKrispanEven

Oh look, another anti-trans thread. Has anyone actually got anything original to say about this?

**

What, like the poster who thinks rape survivors should swallow their trauma to allow a man to do intimate examinations in case he's offended?

That's new.

I couldn't give a flying fuck who does my smear test: male, female, trans... I am just grateful that I am in the fortunate position of being able to have one.

There are millions of women worldwide who do not have access to smear tests and all the other privileges that most of us have here, so I think you should quit your whining personally.

I prefer to have intimate care done by female HCPs. If a man or a transwoman was the only person available and this was explained to me in advance I might consider it. But if I asked for a woman and a male attended as a 'woman' without any warning would be bloody angry that I was being forced into a position where I either had to argue my basic rights or go along with a pretence and an ideology that I do not accept or believe.

As an aside the vast majority of nurses are women and it must be a tiny minority who are MTF. I would say sending a transwoman to carry out a smear test on someone who has requested a woman when there are usually many female nurses available is somebody somewhere trying to make a point.

For exams, yes if a patient requests a certain sex, it should be someone with the appropriate chromosomes (it could easily be a man wanting a male dr for an intimite exam).

The right to take hormones, or have surgery shouldnt extend to making others uncomfortable eg the very male person i encountered, naked, in the womens changing rooms at a spa however much make up he was wearing of his choice aof attire

Oh look, another anti-trans thread. Has anyone actually got anything original to say about this?
Anti trans would be people hating trans people. I don't see that here.

It is not anti trans to state fact that a man in a dress is not a woman and therefore it would be inappropriate for a patient who requests a woman doctor to perform a procedure to be presented with a man.

There is absolutely nothing stopping that woman from getting a smear the following day by a different nurse

liminality, why the hell should she come back the next day? You talk as if women have all the time in the world, to just swan around prioritising TIMs feelings

It takes 3 weeks to get an appointment at my GPs surgery. I always ask for a woman Dr. It would not be a case of 'coming back the next day'...it would be another 3 weeks. I work full time, i am a single parent, i am disabled and have a debilitating health condition. Appointments take monumental effort

so I think you should quit your whining personally.

Good Lord. Yet a nother person who thinks rape survivors wanting a female HCP is whining.

There are millions of women worldwide who do not have access to smear tests and all the other privileges that most of us have here, so I think you should quit your whining personally.

How dare you reduce the trauma and PTSD of my rape!

The lack of female healthcare across the world does not mean that my needs should be dismissed.

You have reduced my rape to me whinning. What a vile mysoginistic comment.