To think that women should be able to request a female doctor or nurse?

[Betti935]

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/the-female-nhs-nurse-i-asked-for-came-with-stubble-83rq9p0gg

Summary: A woman requested a female nurse to carry out her cervical smear test. When she arrived the nurse was clearly male (stubble, deep voice etc). When she questioned this, the nurse insisted that they were a woman because they were trans. The patient says she was made to feel like a bigot and in the end decided not to go ahead with the smear test.

Now in this case, the NHS Trust has apologised and said that the nurse did not handle the situation appropriately. However the government are planning to introduce into law the recommendations of the Women and Equalities Committee which include, not only allowing men to 'self-identify' as women without any medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, but also to get rid of the exemptions currently in place.

Currently, while biological males can legally 'become' women (following a diagnosis of gender dysphoria - there is already no requirement to have any hormone treatment or surgery), there are some limited exemptions in law:

“If a service provider provides single or separate sex services for women and men, or provides services differently to women and men, they should treat transsexual people according to the gender role in which they present. However, the Act does permit the service provider to provide a different service or exclude a person from the service, who is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or who has undergone, gender reassignment. This will only be lawful where the exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.” For example, it is currently legal for a group counselling session for female rape victims to exclude biological males if female clients would be not feel able to attend and participate in the group if they were present.

If this new legislation is passed and there are no exemptions allowing for transwomen (biological males) to be treated differently from biological women, there will be no way to protect vulnerable women who don't feel able to access rape services or medical services if they can't be sure of a female-only service.

This won't be like other rights conflicts (e.g. on sexual orientation versus religion) where test cases go to court and judgements are made because women won't exist as a separate protected group from transwomen.

I think you can ask but not insist (unless you want to go back on the waiting list).

For example, if you needed an urgent gynae exam or had pregnancy complications, I don't think you can specify the gender of the nurses and doctors who can examine you. IME most gynaecologists and obstetricians are male, but always have a chaperone.

The way MN paints trans people out to be the devil makes my blood boil. It literally does not affect your life, but you are all off your faces with fear and bigotry
See i just think people are calling out massive problems with letting anyone self identify willy nilly.

Maybe I should apply for a nursing job despite being a qualified teache with zero medical experience. When they tell me I'm not a nurse I can say 'but i self identify as a nurse'.

Bottom line is that whilst I have zero issue with having my smear done by a man, some women do (I'd imagine some men would have a preference if they have to have a prostate exam). And the bottom line is if a woman wants a biological woman to conduct her smear test then someone with a penis is not a woman. They can present how they like. I don't mind. But they are not a biological woman if they are a man in women's clothing.

Most people on MN are live and let live (even if they personally are a bit hmm on trans) but they rightly have an issue when a certain bunch of trans activists aren't just advocating for trans equality and freedom from discrimination, they are actually looking to actively erode women's spaces and womens rights (e.g. not happy witj a gender neutral cubicle. Thry want all men to be able to use the womens) because they want to keep all of the privilege that having a penis gives them but also want pretty dresses and eyeliner

Tara skaross. You can stop pretending to be female now and take your misogyny elsewhere.

My local GP's caseload is over half elderly and retired people of Asian and Somali descent, a very high percentage of them are Muslim and very traditionally Muslim, many have only a little English, there is already concern about the women not easily accessing health care and the women rely heavily on the chaperone system for physical exams. If they are faced with a HCP who is obviously male as their requested female person to chaperone or to do intimate care they will refuse care because for cultural and religious reasons they cannot accept this from a male person.

This involves pretending that someone is female because they have chosen to label themselves so. Not all women will be willing or able to pretend and it will have serious implications for those women, and their needs and feelings in some situations should not be overridden or shamed into submission for the freedom of a man to have their feelings and choices respected.

April

I was raped. So any man I am not in a relationship with doing an intimate exam will cause me great distress even if he was gay.

Women lesbian or not do not commit sexual offencese at the same rate as men so I always find tbe "what if tbdy were lesbians" argument a bit stupid.

bambambini because for some reason people are scared to offend one trans person, but are happy to offend any amount of women...

That and a total ignorance of the how the Equality legislation can and should be implemented to protect women...

And a fear that the trans person will be able to get a free civil rights lawyer to pursue their cause when the average woman would never be able to afford or manage to do such a thing (for the record I once tried to get Madigan's lawyers to take on a case of disability discrimination for me - they said I had a good case but wanted hundreds of £ an hour so I couldn't afford to pursue the case)

Plus women are conditioned to put up and shut up...

So they NHS assess the odds and go with not offending a transperson who in this case shows the most astonishing lack of empathy bordering on the pschopathic..

this is exactly why we need laws, because so many people just cannot be trusted to be decent human beings when relying on their own conscience.

I wouldn't personally mind having an intimate exam with a male doctor/nurse if that was what I was expecting and had consented to. I would mind if I'd requested a female and instead was faced with a man insisting he was a woman, and expecting me to go along with the pretence despite my discomfort or be called a bigot. I would not feel safe or respected at all, and I would be likely to leave and not return.

It's gaslighting and coercion, often of vulnerable and marginalised women (they may need a female professional because of past rape/assault or childhood abuse, or for religious/cultural reasons).

If you've requested to see a woman, you should see an actual female woman if at all possible - and if it's not possible, the situation should be explained clearly giving the patient the choice to go elsewhere/come back another time if they wish.

April229

Not being goady, but can I ask those who prefer a female to perform cervical smear or other intimate procedure what is the reason?

Read what people have written.

Some women have PTSD and a male HCP is triggering. Other women have cultural/religious reasons. Some have been assaulted by HCPs.

Which is not about sexual attraction. It's about power.

Having an intimate examination can make very many women feel vulnerable.

There is also every chance that a female HCP has had a smear test herself. It's about empathy.

And finally, no woman should ever have to justify the reasons why she doesn't want a man, or anyone, touching her genitals.

A HCP should not put their own feelings above the needs of a patient. End of.

I think you should be able to insist for certain medical procedures. Likewise a man ask for a man.

A HCP should not put their own feelings above the needs of a patient. End of.

And a man identifying as a woman, who has been chosen on the basis that the patient is expecting a woman, is doing exactly that.

I’m off, congrats you’ve hounded me out. Because I have a different opinion. Typical MN. Well done. I’m sure you will all feel very pleased with yourselves

No, you've said some provocative and cultish things and you have been called on them. Now you are trying to play the victim.

Ugh. Cuntish not cultist. I need to teach my autocorrect a few things.

Cultish also works imo

Get everyone stop using the phrase willy nilly please. The willy is most certainly not nilly.

April

Are you really surprised that many women and girls prefer a female for some things? I find it surprising you even have to ask tbh.

I love massages, i really only want women to do them. Had a young man walk in once and i was uncomfortable. I’d have preferred a woman and would have enjoyed the experience more. I didn’t feel able to say anything though.

I’m off, congrats you’ve hounded me out. Because I have a different opinion. Typical MN. Well done. I’m sure you will all feel very pleased with yourselves

No you're flouncing because your attempt at goadery didn't work.

But yes, I'm always pleased to see the back of rape minimisers

No woman should ever be put in the position of having to challenge a transwoman when they have requested a woman HCP/Dr. As Bertha and others have said, its the gaslighting and coercion aspect, the having to speak up and challenge something that is clearly wrong that is being presented as 'right'.

It has so many overtones of how abuse occurs and is presented as being 'OK' and that the abused child/adult should not object. It is truly disgusting to put anyone in that position in the name of state healthcare.

If you've requested to see a woman, you should see an actual female woman if at all possible - and if it'snotpossible, the situation should be explained clearly giving the patient the choice to go elsewhere/come back another time if they wish
This x100
The doctor keeping an eye on our fetility tests at the moment is a man. I don't mind discussing with him at all.
But if I'd requested a woman (and it annoys me now having to use woman as an adjective because female includes whoever fancies self identifying) doctor then I would expect a biologically female doctor, not a man in a dress who expects me to go along with it to protect his feelings.

April because I have been sexually assaulted, by a man, that is a person born with a penis, a man, which is what a trans woman is, a lesbian is not a man.

Hth

I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't understand and be supportive of someone who has been sexually assaulted and raped not having a woman HCP look after them, especially during intimate procedures. This also applies to women whose culture and religion forbid them to be in the presence of a man. It's part and parcel of an holistic approach to health care. If you are a caring and supportive HCP you would understand this.

I’m off, congrats you’ve hounded me out. Because I have a different opinion.

Nobody has hounded you out. You are just too chicken to carry on the fight for what you believe in and threw in the towel. Pathetic attempt at playing the victim here.

The point really is

He thinks or claims he is a woman

I know, because it is a biological fact, that he is a man.

It is really very simple.

Trans rights do not override women's rights.

Feelings do not override facts.

I don't know how the hell we have got here

I take it we're all writing to our MP's yet a fucking gain to find out what they're doing about woman's rights and consent being stamped all over.

Is there also someone in the NHS we should all be writing to? Or should I just write to my local hospital?

To all the goady fuckers why don't you all fuck off back to twitter where I'm sure we're all on TERF blocker so you won't have to be triggered by reality.