To think that women should be able to request a female doctor or nurse?

[Betti935]

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/the-female-nhs-nurse-i-asked-for-came-with-stubble-83rq9p0gg

Summary: A woman requested a female nurse to carry out her cervical smear test. When she arrived the nurse was clearly male (stubble, deep voice etc). When she questioned this, the nurse insisted that they were a woman because they were trans. The patient says she was made to feel like a bigot and in the end decided not to go ahead with the smear test.

Now in this case, the NHS Trust has apologised and said that the nurse did not handle the situation appropriately. However the government are planning to introduce into law the recommendations of the Women and Equalities Committee which include, not only allowing men to 'self-identify' as women without any medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, but also to get rid of the exemptions currently in place.

Currently, while biological males can legally 'become' women (following a diagnosis of gender dysphoria - there is already no requirement to have any hormone treatment or surgery), there are some limited exemptions in law:

“If a service provider provides single or separate sex services for women and men, or provides services differently to women and men, they should treat transsexual people according to the gender role in which they present. However, the Act does permit the service provider to provide a different service or exclude a person from the service, who is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or who has undergone, gender reassignment. This will only be lawful where the exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.” For example, it is currently legal for a group counselling session for female rape victims to exclude biological males if female clients would be not feel able to attend and participate in the group if they were present.

If this new legislation is passed and there are no exemptions allowing for transwomen (biological males) to be treated differently from biological women, there will be no way to protect vulnerable women who don't feel able to access rape services or medical services if they can't be sure of a female-only service.

This won't be like other rights conflicts (e.g. on sexual orientation versus religion) where test cases go to court and judgements are made because women won't exist as a separate protected group from transwomen.

Morphene is going to continue to struggle with this issue until she understands that part of being a HCP is accepting that some patients won't want you to treat them because of something about you. There's nothing particularly sinister about this, or even negative. It's just the nature of consent.

We should of course take steps to stop situations like those in the OP from happening, but not because HCPs have a right not to be exposed to the consequences of patient consent in the profession they've freely chosen. But because of the impact on patients, and cost. We could start by not doing obviously stupid shit like sending a male in to do a smear for a patient who requested a woman, and not changing single sex provision to single gender.

A person needs to be able to differentiate from justfied and unjustfied and process their feelings apporpriately - "No, you cannot have a recording contract as you cannot sing in tune" = justified yet is still discrimination and hurtful but is completely fine and the sort of thing one needs to learn to get over as there will be lots of other things you can do.

Yes!

Italiangreyhound I don't understand what you mean by 'I was seeking a medical outcome and not to be validated as a woman'.
Women don't need to be validated as a woman when we're receiving health care specifically related to our reproductive systems. We're already aware of that when we're laying half naked on our backs with our legs open.
I'm a former HCP and I'm fully aware that the vast majority of male HCP are decent caring professional people. It doesn't stop me feeling vulnerable and slightly afraid, and delay my smear tests for as long as possible.
This really will have detrimental effects on women's health care if it becomes common practice.

None of this means I want to expose a female nurse to discrimination by insisting to their face that they aren't allowed to do the smear because of their gender

Is there a single, solitary health care worker or care provider who did not know from day one of their training that for certain services patients might want and are legally entitled to ask for a carer of a specific sex?

It might be the same sex as the patient or not. At least one MNetter has said (not on this thread but in the past) that she asks for a male doctor because of sexual abuse by a woman.

This is not "discrimination" either legally, ethically or morally. Refusing such a request is unethical and in most cases illegal too.

Thank you Ereshkigal. Unfortunately there will be more and more instances of people in REAL NEED of having a side room, being left on a ward as the TIMS will need to be pandered to, while females need to be protected.

HANG ON! I've just realised something! There would have been a ward report given and the nurse in charge would have seen this was a bloke. They didn't just walk onto the ward and decide to do smears, though I've no doubt they jumped at the chance of doing them. It would obviously been in this lady's medical documents that she required a female nurse, so which asshole thought it was ok to send a man to do smears? Was the person in charge more concerned about being called a terf, than the welfare of the femail patients? I really hope they were pulled over the coals for that.

noeffingidea "Italiangreyhound I don't understand what you mean by 'I was seeking a medical outcome and not to be validated as a woman'."

My post was relating to the trans woman who wanted to be on a female ward and be examined by a female doctor with no chaperone, not to the woman who was wanting a smear. I am sorry if that was not clear.

The implication with some trans women insisting that they use the female facilities when alternative private facilities (like the private room) or offered is that in some way they feel being in with other women validates them as female. I was comparing my own experience of being offered a private room when I had a C-section and got an infection (I was delighted to get a private room) with the private room being rejected by the trans woman.

I was not referring to the smear test.

If I had the choice I would opt for a man to do my next smear

Oh right… because you’ve also said

selecting a doctor or nurse on sex is discriminatory. I've never personally felt there is any difference

before saying

I'd marginally prefer a male bra fitter if I ever lost the ability to use a tape measure all by myself….

Whilst some posters here have made some really interesting and powerful contributions to the discussion, I just don’t get the lengthy back and forth with Morphene on this.

It’s really bloody simple. Requesting an HCP of a particular sex is neither an outrageous nor offensive request. When patients request a male or female HCP for intimate examinations, they mean a biologically male or biologically female HCP.

There is simply no need to put either the patient or the HCP in an awkward situation.

Mind you, this incident is fabulous for those who are wavering on peak trans and i would love to know how the hospital are going to cope with the attempted brainwashing by the activists. Hopefully it will give those who go to the forced brainwashing courses the courage to speak out. The trust can hardly apologise to this woman, then demand that their staff go along with the illogical thinking.

Thanks for explaining Italiangreyhound . There's a lot to keep track of on this thread .

When patients request a male or female HCP for intimate examinations, they mean a biologically male or biologically female HCP.

That's an excellent point. If I was still a health care worker and someone told me that a TIM was demanding to be treated by female staff, I would just say that I'm gender fluid and identify as a man that day. The male staff could then say they identify as females. You don't even have to dress as the opposite sex, nowadays. I'd love to be a fly on the wall for that one. 😆

That type of thing really needs to start to happen PERF. I think it would shut most of this shit down.

The activists and prats that pander to this shit would tie themselves in knots if that started. You should suggest it to your family member, Ereshkigal. Those in the health service that are stupid enough to force this false belief system will have a hard time telling staff they can't do that, as that would make them terfs. I'm now picturing an entire room of staff at a brainwashing session claiming to be gender fluid. The activist would implode. 💥😂

That is actually a really good idea.

Not my family member but I wish people would do it!

It was AssignedPuuurfect's relative.

noeffingidea

De-lurks to stand and applaud unplugmefromthematrix for a stunningly good appraisal of the situation

Yes I think I will say that to her.

Makes me fucking mad. She is a beautiful and kind young woman and there's is no way that this fucker was innocent in objecting to the chaperone. I know medical staff have to deal with all manner of shit but this is really fucking creepy

I seem to remember with the guy in the Scots prison who has a whole lot of problems and has insisted on prison staff calling him Mr Mighty Almighty and currently is TIM, when he insisted female staff only do body searches (with women being unsafe in this situation) there was mention of the male prison staff temporarily identifying for the purpose of the search. There have also been gender critical women who have self identified as trans women to prove a point.

The trouble is this is the point where I get uncomfortable. With people like this who are taking the piss, who are disregarding and belittling women by their actions, that kind of response becomes justified and necessary. The people who get trampled under foot by this are the genuine transsexuals and people with genuine dysphoria. They are being used as the human shield by the pisstakers who will push until everyone is so fed up that all trans people suffer the backlash. If society isn't comfortable with drawing a line and saying clearly 'this is ok, but this is not' then that line will be drawn in a much harsher way when people lose patience.

Sorry AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth and Ereshkigal I didn't mean to misidentify you both. 😉😁

Sorry AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth and Ereshkigal I didn't mean to misidentify you both. 😉😁

I agree that genuine transexuals are going to get a raw deal in all this.

People who are not deliberately trying to cause trouble would surely be grateful for a private room rather and the staff could handle the need for, say, two members of staff to be present if necessary for an examination discreetly, without even needing to refer to it - I've had a nurse and a doctor in the room for "intimate" examinations before and it's never actually occurred to me that the nurse in the room was there purely as a "chaperone" rather than a nurse, but I guess perhaps she was.

It is true that this conversation is troubling for the very reason that no one wants patients of any kind to feel unnecessary distress or discomfort when they are having to cope with a medical problem already, and that includes transpeople who need medical attention.

Yes I have heard of a few cases where private, neutral spaces have been refused as not good enough by TIM. One was a seminar where gender neutral individual toilets were right outside the door of the event and women were happily using them but the TIM walked past them and down a corridor to use the women's loos. Transwomen who are worried about their safety in sharing intimate areas with men would surely be pleased to have a private 'safe' space. Which makes me think those who kick up a fuss and want to be in communal women's areas are more concerned at being validated or want to make women uncomfortable.

But there isn't always going to be a private room, and the trans person may not be the most deserving person of it. I agree that's going to often be how these things are managed but I don't think it's really workable and I'm concerned that the alternative is to put any man identifying as trans onto a female ward. I'd like to see people challenging it, even anonymously, rather than finding workarounds which aren't going to be possible in every case.