To think that women should be able to request a female doctor or nurse?

[Betti935]

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/the-female-nhs-nurse-i-asked-for-came-with-stubble-83rq9p0gg

Summary: A woman requested a female nurse to carry out her cervical smear test. When she arrived the nurse was clearly male (stubble, deep voice etc). When she questioned this, the nurse insisted that they were a woman because they were trans. The patient says she was made to feel like a bigot and in the end decided not to go ahead with the smear test.

Now in this case, the NHS Trust has apologised and said that the nurse did not handle the situation appropriately. However the government are planning to introduce into law the recommendations of the Women and Equalities Committee which include, not only allowing men to 'self-identify' as women without any medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, but also to get rid of the exemptions currently in place.

Currently, while biological males can legally 'become' women (following a diagnosis of gender dysphoria - there is already no requirement to have any hormone treatment or surgery), there are some limited exemptions in law:

“If a service provider provides single or separate sex services for women and men, or provides services differently to women and men, they should treat transsexual people according to the gender role in which they present. However, the Act does permit the service provider to provide a different service or exclude a person from the service, who is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or who has undergone, gender reassignment. This will only be lawful where the exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.” For example, it is currently legal for a group counselling session for female rape victims to exclude biological males if female clients would be not feel able to attend and participate in the group if they were present.

If this new legislation is passed and there are no exemptions allowing for transwomen (biological males) to be treated differently from biological women, there will be no way to protect vulnerable women who don't feel able to access rape services or medical services if they can't be sure of a female-only service.

This won't be like other rights conflicts (e.g. on sexual orientation versus religion) where test cases go to court and judgements are made because women won't exist as a separate protected group from transwomen.

There isn't always going to be a place on the ward - any ward - let alone a private room. I don't think saying a transperson, or let's say transwoman because that's really the issue here MUST go in the male ward is any better than saying they MUST go on the female ward. There is going to have to be discretion from the HCPs and, unfortunately, in our over-stretched system we will sometimes all just have to make do with what is available if we want treatment, be that a mixed ward or the corridor.

I'm sorry I don't agree. I think women should be able to have a ward without any biological males. This is part of the wider issue of pandering to the trans lobby. The expectation is that women should put up and shut up and that is wrong.

mirialis "It is true that this conversation is troubling for the very reason that no one wants patients of any kind to feel unnecessary distress or discomfort when they are having to cope with a medical problem already, and that includes transpeople who need medical attention."

Sadly, I've seen on social media some people are quite happy with patients feeling distressed if the rights of trans people to be identified as their chosen gender are respected!

The issues of privacy are valid ones. The importance of consent and privacy work both ways and someone living as a woman and presenting as a woman, and quite possibly with breasts etc, should not have to deal with stares and feeling unsafe on a mens ward. Equally women should not have to deal with feeling unsafe and invaded by biological men on womens' wards. The respect has to go both ways. A third space, perhaps with more protected and private cubicles, is the only way to provide this, and I'm very happy to support public spaces including hospitals developing these. This would have to be within the reality of current budgeting and overstretching, but this can be planned and worked towards in the longterm.

Yes, the idea of a third space is furiously rejected by some TRAs for all the reasons mentioned above, but apart from all people being entitled to equal care and respect around their need for privacy, the gates have been opened so wide by self ID that it's no longer possible to go on case by case. You cannot choose whether you're in a bed beside someone who has been quietly living as a woman for years, will respect your privacy as much as you respect theirs and is completely safe in this space, or whether you are next to someone who likes to identify as a fifteen year old girl some days, is in every way apart from their outfit biologically male, and intends to stamp their demands and politics in the face of everyone around them.

The respect has to go both ways. A third space, perhaps with more protected and private cubicles, is the only way to provide this, and I'm very happy to support public spaces including hospitals developing these. This would have to be within the reality of current budgeting and overstretching, but this can be planned and worked towards in the longterm.

Yes. But I also think there also needs to be a clearer definition of what "trans" is. And more gatekeeping of it.

Ereshkigal very much agree.

I've seen on social media some people are quite happy with patients feeling distressed if the rights of trans people to be identified as their chosen gender are respected!

Of course.

But when I said no-one, I was talking about the people on this thread where we've all been saying that the "feelz" of the HCP are secondary to the well-being of the patient.

And I don't think trans people fall into the category of "patient needing prime consideration" any less than anyone else.

If you want a definition of who MUST be on the female ward, why not biological females and transwomen who don't possess a penis? We're all ok with that, right?

I do actually think we could afford HCPs some discretion, however, about how best to deal with someone who is not there to trample on the feelings of everyone else, who needs treatment, and presents the need for a balance of consideration for the well-being of ALL patients under their care - that is, there are situations where a transperson could be placed on a ward that doesn't necessarily match their chromosomal sex, nor their genitalia, and that would be the least problematic solution for all patients and HCPs concerned.

I don't agree that biological males should be put on a female ward. That's my position on it. I don't think we should pander to the delusion that they are female. I think it's a harmful belief which is destroying women's rights. I think we need more checks and balances than is currently happening. So no, not happy to leave it up to HCPs. Women are the ones whose feelings and boundaries will be ignored, not men.

So a transman who absolutely passes as a man should be placed on the women's ward?

Morphene: What I am saying is that I have sympathy for anyone suffering discrimination in the work place because of my experiences - and that it cannot be beyond the wit of human kind to come up with a system that respects patient choice and prevents people from turning up to perform a procedure and being told they are considered inappropriate through absolutely no fault of their own.
What you want is unpossible. People are going to say no than you to other people. They have every right to do so. People who refuse to take no for an answer are not safe to be around.

I’d be fine with TIFs being on the women’s ward if it was explained to the other patients that they are female. That’s preferable to TIMs in women’s wards.

Yes. I think that's a silly argument. They would have to be on a maternity ward wouldn't they? And yes people might ask them about it. But there are going to be problems with any solution, so it shouldn't be always that women as a class should be the ones who lose out all the fucking time. And I believe some FTMs prefer female spaces funnily enough for safety reasons. Few trans people pass to the extent that you really wouldn't be able to tell.

You would be fine with TIFs but what about other women on the ward who might find their stereotypical male appearance and demeanour triggering or intimidating?

I’d be fine with TIFs being on the women’s ward if it was explained to the other patients that they are female. That’s preferable to TIMs in women’s wards.

YY. Me too.

Yes that’s a good point. In that case I think they should be in the male ward.

You would be fine with TIFs but what about other women on the ward who might find their stereotypical male appearance and demeanour triggering or intimidating?

If they knew they were actually female, I think they would understand.

I’m okay with both TIMs and TIFs being in male spaces in general.

You would be fine with TIFs but what about other women on the ward who might find their stereotypical male appearance and demeanour triggering or intimidating?

Using your logic we should send butch women to the men's ward too, just in case people assumed they were male.

Female biology = female ward

Using your logic we should send butch women to the men's ward too, just in case people assumed they were male.

Female biology = female ward

YY.

If they knew they were actually female, I think they would understand

Women who have requested female HCPs completely understandably do not want someone with stereotypically male characteristics and demeanours treating them, no matter how much reassurance they might have that the HCP is a "woman" for a reason, and it's not simply because a chromosomal test would reveal they are XY.

I think we're going to need a third gender neutral ward for trans people. It will mean FTMs and MTFs in the same space but at least they are all fabulously trans. No horrid cis people.

Few trans people pass to the extent that you really wouldn't be able to tell

So transmen rarely pass as men but butch women do and would have to be sent off to the men's ward?

They're not male, as pp said some butch women also appear male, and most trans people don't pass. What would you suggest? We were talking about wards not HCPs at that point, btw.

The point is that some butch women and "transmen" look exactly the same. I didn't say either should be put in the men's ward.

Wards are not divided into feminine/masculine, can you imagine if they were?

"Yes I know you are here for a hysterectomy, but you forgot to do your makeup this morning, so please take a bed next to this gentleman here"