To think that women should be able to request a female doctor or nurse?

[Betti935]

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/the-female-nhs-nurse-i-asked-for-came-with-stubble-83rq9p0gg

Summary: A woman requested a female nurse to carry out her cervical smear test. When she arrived the nurse was clearly male (stubble, deep voice etc). When she questioned this, the nurse insisted that they were a woman because they were trans. The patient says she was made to feel like a bigot and in the end decided not to go ahead with the smear test.

Now in this case, the NHS Trust has apologised and said that the nurse did not handle the situation appropriately. However the government are planning to introduce into law the recommendations of the Women and Equalities Committee which include, not only allowing men to 'self-identify' as women without any medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, but also to get rid of the exemptions currently in place.

Currently, while biological males can legally 'become' women (following a diagnosis of gender dysphoria - there is already no requirement to have any hormone treatment or surgery), there are some limited exemptions in law:

“If a service provider provides single or separate sex services for women and men, or provides services differently to women and men, they should treat transsexual people according to the gender role in which they present. However, the Act does permit the service provider to provide a different service or exclude a person from the service, who is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or who has undergone, gender reassignment. This will only be lawful where the exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.” For example, it is currently legal for a group counselling session for female rape victims to exclude biological males if female clients would be not feel able to attend and participate in the group if they were present.

If this new legislation is passed and there are no exemptions allowing for transwomen (biological males) to be treated differently from biological women, there will be no way to protect vulnerable women who don't feel able to access rape services or medical services if they can't be sure of a female-only service.

This won't be like other rights conflicts (e.g. on sexual orientation versus religion) where test cases go to court and judgements are made because women won't exist as a separate protected group from transwomen.

Morphene I have been upset and infuriated by your posts as many have.

We are talking here about discrimination for a good/valid reason – the opposite of the sexism and discrimination you experience at work from you male colleagues. Their behaviour is awful and wrong because there is no good reason for it. Their belief that you are inferior to them in any way simply because you are a woman is completely unfounded and unscientific – their discrimination is based on longstanding deep-rooted cultural prejudice, bullying, oppression, superstitious/ religious disrespect/ fear of women and abuse of power, and is NOT logical, NOT supported by reason and fact or data, unlike for example crime against women – including the crimes you face committed against you at work where you are unjustly and unreasonably discriminated against because of your sex.

That you experience this, just proves that there is still significant cultural antipathy toward women at a societal level – and this same antipathy will be be present amongst men in the medical profession as it is still sadly present in every walk of life.

Would you want to be fitted/ measured for a tight fitting work uniform by one your unplesasant colleagues? Have you thought about what they think in their heads but don’t say to you? What they say to each other when you are not around? Would you really be happy with one of those men measuring your breasts and inside leg knowing that they have obvious disdain for you? Not an imaginary utopian wonder-man, but one of these actual nasty men. Someone who might be your physcs colleague one day then an acupuncturist or bra fitter the next. Someone whose ‘chip off the old block’ son is now a doctor...

Would you want a man with attitudes like that to give you medical treatment? Never mind carry out a smear test? Would you trust them to not be thinking misogynistic thoughts whilst treating you? Would you really trust them to give enough of a damn to listen to your concerns and experiences? You are not wrong to wish that society was fair and kind and equal and utopian and that there should be no problem with men treating women, but this simply is not the reality we live in.

Because it also isn’t just about times when abhorrent men have raped or sexually abused women, it is also about the many, many times when women have experienced ‘lesser’ misogyny from a boyfriend or partner during sex or as part of a relationship and felt shamed, degraded or less than, often by a man who until then, you thought was ‘a good guy’ – as well as the general background sexual or derogatory comments on the street or in pubs or at work etc. Because having experienced this or more, it can be uncomfortable and triggering to then go and lie half naked with your genitals exposed to then be assessed and probed by some random man who is statistically unlikely to be your utopian wonder-man.

Of course some/ many women can be nasty and/ or misogynistic, but the fact remains that mathematically you are safest with a woman and while humans are still capable of being cruel and we have an underfunded NHS who has to take whatever worker they can get, often the best we can do to protect ourselves is to play the odds. And at the very least a female HCP/ Dr have direct experience of female anatomy and will very likely have had a smear test themselves.

And just like we are all responsible for challenging racism and bullying (I believe), men are also responsible for calling out and challenging misogyny and toxic masculinity. That they don’t is either because they themselves agree with it or that they may be scared of getting ostracised or beaten up – well how do they think women feel? Women who are inherently less physically strong and ususally take the brunt of child rearing (essential to the survivial of the species)? How are women supposed to fight this when enough of the ‘good men’ don’t stand up for kindness and fairness?

This is not just peak-Trans for many women, it is peak-Sexism, peak-Abuse.

Some of us just want to get the hell away from these kinds of degrading experiences and say actually NO, NO FUCKING MORE, NOT EVER AGAIN, NOT EVEN ONCE.

@unplugmefromthematrix
A truly excellent post.

I have a relative who is a junior doctor and she was telling me how a TIM demanded to be on the women's ward. The senior doc insisted that he was put in a private room and the TIM kicked up an almighty fuss but they didn't let him onto the ward. He demanded that he was examined by a female doctor but my relative and the other female docs said that they required a chaperone. He went apeshit at this but the docs refused to examine him unless they had the chaperone. Eventually he had to relent because they were refusing to treat him. She told me that it's an extremely political issue in the hospitals and the opinions are very polarised. I'm sure we will hear more about this but at least some sense prevailed in this case

Assigned Thank fuck there as some parts of the health service that still see sense. Well done to the management in your relative's hospital. That gives a tiny bit of hope, that the blinkers of PC are falling away.

Perf

I know. It made me sigh a little

I peaktransed my entire family over the Christmas hols. The young male relatives were particularly outraged. My mother looked very confused and was struck silent for some time, which is not at all like her.

Good job me!

That's awesome! Well done APAB!

Thanks Ereshkigal

It was very satisfying. DH now terfed up too. It took some time with him so am pleased about that.

My teenage son too - he is incredulous at the notion of boys IDing as girls to gain access to girls' changing rooms. He says he knows plenty of boys who would take advantage of that. He is very funny about about it too, in that teenage boy who thinks most adults are fucking stupid way

unplugged you say "discrimination for a good/valid reason"

This is it entirely.

Discrimination for a good/valid reason, still feels like discrimination to the person who is on the receiving end.

I don't deny the reasons are good/valid. I don't know why everyone else is keen to deny that the discrimination is also real.

I would like the wishes of patients to be respected ALWAYS. After that has been dealt with, I would like, where additionally possible, that human beings working in the NHS don't have to face open discrimination on a daily basis.

I know perfectly well that there is a difference between students assuming I'm not qualified because of my appearance and someone requesting a female nurse for a smear. What I am saying is that I have sympathy for anyone suffering discrimination in the work place because of my experiences - and that it cannot be beyond the wit of human kind to come up with a system that respects patient choice and prevents people from turning up to perform a procedure and being told they are considered inappropriate through absolutely no fault of their own.

I have a relative who is a junior doctor and she was telling me how a TIM demanded to be on the women's ward. The senior doc insisted that he was put in a private room and the TIM kicked up an almighty fuss but they didn't let him onto the ward. He demanded that he was examined by a female doctor but my relative and the other female docs said that they required a chaperone. He went apeshit at this but the docs refused to examine him unless they had the chaperone.

This really demonstrates the one-wayness of it all.

TIM was certainly not expected to go onto the mens ward and rightfully so, their identity was respected.

Was offered a private room as a personalised provision - which most people in an nhs hospital would grab with both hands and see as a privilege. The TIM made a huge fuss. Why? Safety and identity absolutely respected and catered for. But insisted on being among women with no regard for how those women may feel about it. The whole 'I AM going to undress/receive medical care/do this right alongside you whether you like it or not' always makes me think of some leering idiot shouting 'you're beautiful when you're angry darling' because he's made some kind of advance knowing full well it was inappropriate and unwanted and is delighted that he's got a reaction. It's a bloody power kick. No, women are not a bloody tool for you to use to express yourself. You cannot demand that all other women accept giving up their privacy and include a male bodied person no matter what their own circumstances just because the male bodied person wants it and will be upset if they're not validated. The entitlement behind that is huge.

Asked for a female doctor - great. Everyone should have the right of choice, and this was respected. However the female doctor said no problem, I'll just need a chaperone. Standard practice, protects everyone in situations of intimate care. TIM objected furiously to the chaperone. Why? Not a rational response unless it wasn't just about only feeling comfortable with a named and specific sex. Again, TIM expected their personal situation and feelings to be respected and anyone else having feelings or own needs to meet is behaving badly. There is no compromise or middle ground allowed.

I wonder if the TIM had been presented with a TIM healthcare provider as their female HCP they would have specified that they meant a biological female. Rather like transwomen lesbians are clear that they only intend to have sex with biological females and do not regard other transwomen as potential sexual partners, although biologically female lesbians may not feel entitled to have the same feelings or rights to make personal choices.

unpluged regarding the rest of your post, I have received more abuse from men than women at work, and those people I would indeed not want to treat me or (fit my bra).

But in a health care setting I have received on average better and more compassionate treatment from men than from women...particularly during childbirth when I was indeed at my most vulnerable and suffered lasting trauma.

If I had the choice I would opt for a man to do my next smear (which I am putting off because I can't afford the mental fall out in the near future) because of the way I was treated by women during childbirth...but that isn't an option at my surgery so I'll be sucking it up and hoping I get a nurse that doesn't assume that just because they've never felt any pain during a smear, no one else will either. This, by the way is a very good and valid reason for requesting a member of opposite sex, who in my experience are far less likely to assume they know your body just because they know their own.

None of this means I want to expose a female nurse to discrimination by insisting to their face that they aren't allowed to do the smear because of their gender.

It is completely consistent to acknowledge and support the choice of patients of treatment AND to not want HCP to face day to day discrimination.

TIM was certainly not expected to go onto the mens ward and rightfully so, their identity was respected.

What when there isn't a single room available though? I think they should have been put on the men's ward. Any man claiming to be trans has the opportunity to get a private room over people who might need one more, whether or not they present as a "woman."

None of this means I want to expose a female nurse to discrimination by insisting to their face that they aren't allowed to do the smear because of their gender.

Oh come off it, the fact you personally have experiences with women HCPs that make you prefer a male is not the same as many women not wanting strange men to touch their genitals and/or breasts.

Yes indeed AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth

I was put in a private room after the birth of my dd (complicated C-*section), unwashed delighted! A chaperone was required (by the surgery) when my make doctor examined my breasts. I did mind at all (except the dosy woman left the room and opened the door into the surgery as I was still uncovered!)

As a woman seeking medical attention what was paramount for me on both situations was the medical attention!

to not want HCP to face day to day discrimination
Morphene, I was a nurse (admittedly a long time ago, lol). This literally was not an issue. Thats because a very important element of health care is to recognise the psychological and emotional well being of the patient.
The feelings of the HCP come a long long way behind that.
If female patients are forced to accept transwomen as females then some women will refuse personal care from them, for a variety of reasons. That is a fact. There is no getting away from that.
It's going to be really awkward for the NHS if death rates from cervical cancer start to rise again, especially when patterns concerning certain demographics are detected.

I was not unwashed

Italiangreyhound that is not paramount for all women though, unfortunately.

None of this means I want to expose a female nurse to discrimination by insisting to their face that they aren't allowed to do the smear because of their gender
Oh you do make me laugh. Believe me, they wouldn't give a single solitary shit.
Most people with a preference (both male and female) prefer personal nursing care from female nurses. No one is going to get upset by the odd exception. They would just deal with it in a professional manner, just as male nurses have to.

None of this means I want to expose a female nurse to discrimination by insisting to their face that they aren't allowed to do the smear because of their gender.

I doubt many patients are going to care whether the HCP has high heels, skirts, earrings or what gender they are performing, gender is irrelevant. The issue is biological sex.

Putting aside that you still feel it's the patient's responsibility to suck up any stress and distress to protect the HCP's needs and feelings, the bottom line is you are calling it 'discrimination' because you believe that if a transwoman IS a woman if they say so, and biological women should not be allowed to resist buying into this.

Yes, it was not a great situation for the HCP in the article to be put in, but this is the crux of it: not all biological women will be prepared to accept intimate care from transwomen, because transwomen are biologically male. This is a fact. Your answer is 'women shut up and put the men first'. My answer is, there are some situations for biological females in which the interests and needs of transwomen cannot be the priority.

I used to work in healthcare and had men refuse personal care from me more than once, requesting a male carer instead. Not once did I take offence or feel discriminated against because I recognise that the world doesn't revolve around me, and that those in need of care don't exist to validate the identity of their carers. Something that the transwoman in the article could do with reflecting on next time instead of arguing with a woman who is naked from the waist down waiting nervously for an intimate procedure.

Well said stitch.
The idea that HCP's should take their own personal feelings onto a ward or clinic and prioritise them over a patient's mental and emotional well being is absurd.

I think the hospital dealt with that creep in the best way they could, but on the other hand, I should just have got my dying husband to have claimed to be a woman, then he could have had a side room, instead of lying on a general ward, being discussed LOUDLY by the other men and their families/visitors.

Even when they don't get everything they want TIMs still get better treatment than other patients, yet wail that they're being discriminated against. I'm so glad I've left the health service as I think I'd end up sacked anyway for not going along with this shit. Female nurses regularly get sexually assaulted, harassed and abused, yet rarely lodge complaints. This bullying by the activists, MRA and perverts is going to see an increase in abuse and with the shouts of terf and staff being forced to attend the brainwashing sessions, women are even less likely to complain.

Morphene please insist on a male HCP or a male GP specifically to do your smear. If that is what you want. Don't demean your own choices. I, personally, would support patients asking for anything specific. If it is possible.

Generally, we do not choose HCP on the basis of race but on this or a similar threat was mention of men with dementia who had been in a concentration camp in Asia. As a result he did not have care from Filipino nurses.

Another man with dementia did not have care from male nurses because of his experiences in the war.

My own mum did not want male carers.

When there is a valid reason for a distinction to be made, it ceases to be a discrimination issue.

In the case I mention, do you think those Filipino nurses felt discriminated against or protected?

Discrimination is about when there is not a valid reason. I am not discriminated against by British Airways for not employing me as a pilot - I cannot fly a plane.

"Discrimination for a good/valid reason, still feels like discrimination to the person who is on the receiving end." It should not if there is a valid reason!

E.G.

You cannot join the church youth club as a member, you are 47 - should the 47 year old feel they are a victim of discrimination?

I'm a heterosexual woman so I don't want to sleep with you? -should the lesbian feel discriminated against?

No one should ever feel discriminated against because someone Doran't want to sleep with them!

Most of this arises because trans women want to be seen as and treated as natal women. But the majority of society does not recognise trans women as the same as natal women. The constant gaslighting to try to make this happen is truely frustrating.

So please stop asserting "...discrimination is also real." When what you are talking about is people trying to make others believe their own thoughts. I don't believe trans women are the same as natal women. It doesn't matter who drives my bus. It would indeed be discrimination to stop a trans person driving a bus because they are trans.

However, it is not discrimination telling a trans woman they are not female and therefore do not fit the bill for a patient who has asked for a female.

Whoever assigned the trans woman to that patient was on the wrong.

"After that has been dealt with, I would like, where additionally possible, that human beings working in the NHS don't have to face open discrimination on a daily basis."

So would I. But it is not going to happen if you keep wrongly identifying valid reasons why a particular HCP is not right for a certain situation as discrimination.

"What I am saying is that I have sympathy for anyone suffering discrimination in the work place because of my experiences..." I think, with respect, your own experiences are clouding your judgment.

noeffingidea "Italiangreyhound that is not paramount for all women though, unfortunately"

No of course not and you are right. What I really meant was I did not need to focus on the type of room or having a chaperone. But I worded it badly. I meant really I was seeking a medical outcome and not to be validated as a woman.

I think the hospital dealt with that creep in the best way they could

I agree. And the fact that the female staff insisted on a chaperone makes me think they were genuinely uneasy about him and his motives. I just wish the feelings of women were counted as much as those of men. And like your husband , IMO there will always be people in much more need of the privacy of a single room than men identifying as women. And there won't always be a single room available.

But why would you be offended Morphene if someone had perfectly good reason to discriminate?

In that case one simply uses empathy to think "ah, I can see why (or think of very likely reasons why) that person would feel that way for their very good and legitimate reasons (not invented illogical hateful reasons such as women can't be as good as men, or black people are inferior to white people), then think I know it is not personal to me but I am happy to be able to help them meet their needs because in their shoes I might feel the same (in these very specific and limited circumstances eg involving imtimate care or nakedness, not serving tea or coffee)." No offence given or taken.

A person needs to be able to differentiate from justfied and unjustfied and process their feelings apporpriately - "No, you cannot have a recording contract as you cannot sing in tune" = justified yet is still discrimination and hurtful but is completely fine and the sort of thing one needs to learn to get over as there will be lots of other things you can do. It is an acceptance of material reality and your argument actually reminds me of the trans acitvist stance which seems to be that no one can 'offend' anyone no matter how sensible, justified, scientific, necessary or even if for that person's own well-being even!

If this justified offence gets too frequent then you need to be looking at the bigger picture of what is going on - accept that you cannot sing well enough to be a pop star and look for a new career or passion, a transwoman nurse ought to stop trying to give smears to women if they keep getting rejected. Male doctors ought to stop being so arrogant as to ignore the effect of misogyny in assuming that all women will find them non-alarming. Once they stop denying the extent and damage of male culture and violence maybe they would be more bothered about stopping it rather than just expect women to put up and shut up and take the risk, because unknown to that woman, they are 'one of the good guys'.

Empathy and balance and good judgement is what is needed and we are sadly lacking it seems. If more people, including NHS staff, were kinder and more balanced human beings then we wouldn't be having this trouble. But having empathy does not mean 'feelz' rule everything, that would be illogical and gives rise to nonsense like lady brains being only good for dresses and make-up and cooking dinner for the men. Argh.