To think that women should be able to request a female doctor or nurse?

[Betti935]

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/the-female-nhs-nurse-i-asked-for-came-with-stubble-83rq9p0gg

Summary: A woman requested a female nurse to carry out her cervical smear test. When she arrived the nurse was clearly male (stubble, deep voice etc). When she questioned this, the nurse insisted that they were a woman because they were trans. The patient says she was made to feel like a bigot and in the end decided not to go ahead with the smear test.

Now in this case, the NHS Trust has apologised and said that the nurse did not handle the situation appropriately. However the government are planning to introduce into law the recommendations of the Women and Equalities Committee which include, not only allowing men to 'self-identify' as women without any medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, but also to get rid of the exemptions currently in place.

Currently, while biological males can legally 'become' women (following a diagnosis of gender dysphoria - there is already no requirement to have any hormone treatment or surgery), there are some limited exemptions in law:

“If a service provider provides single or separate sex services for women and men, or provides services differently to women and men, they should treat transsexual people according to the gender role in which they present. However, the Act does permit the service provider to provide a different service or exclude a person from the service, who is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or who has undergone, gender reassignment. This will only be lawful where the exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.” For example, it is currently legal for a group counselling session for female rape victims to exclude biological males if female clients would be not feel able to attend and participate in the group if they were present.

If this new legislation is passed and there are no exemptions allowing for transwomen (biological males) to be treated differently from biological women, there will be no way to protect vulnerable women who don't feel able to access rape services or medical services if they can't be sure of a female-only service.

This won't be like other rights conflicts (e.g. on sexual orientation versus religion) where test cases go to court and judgements are made because women won't exist as a separate protected group from transwomen.

If you book your procedure with someone specifically you would be discriminating against all the other practitioners.

Trouble is you can self identify as anything. Would people be as comfortable with an adult self identifying as a 4 year old and gaining access to children only spaces? I fail to see how this is any different.

Jesus Christ! This nurse didn’t need to be told to his face that he wasn’t suitable to carry out this procedure BECAUSE THE PATIENT REQUESTED IN ADVANCE FOR A FEMALE PRACTITIONER. A woman. A female. Not a man. Not a man identifying as female. Not a transwoman. A woman.

Well I do think that selecting a doctor or nurse on sex is discriminatory. I've never personally felt there is any difference. I'd marginally prefer a male bra fitter if I ever lost the ability to use a tape measure all by myself....

What an absolute twat.

Really not worth engaging with.

Morphine the single gender service provision vision of our future is one I sincerely hope will not become a reality.

And if it does I think it will lead to very negative outcomes for trans people.

If it literally does not matter if you feel male or female despite being female or male then services like councelling and whatever sex reassignment surgery is bring called these days may not be options for true trans people.

Knowing a few trans people or gender/ trans confused children myself I feel that is a massive shame

I also feel this massive gaslighting being foisted on us all will actually not help people with genuine gender dysforia. But I digress.

Discriminated laws are about giving people normal opportunities and protections. If you cannot see how who gets to probe a woman"s vagina is not a normal issue I can't help you.

You do know that the examples I gave about sperm donor, rabbi and French chef could be examples where it is ok for an employee to make a choice.

A bit like darting, where no one has to date anyone (or sleep with them) and can turn a sexual or romantic partner down for any reason at all and it is not something to do with discrimination!

You and I make 'discriminating choices' every day, tea or coffee, chips or rice, it's called choices.

Not everything about life can be governed by inclusion of every single person.

Even I'm employment there are exclusions legally allowed. Thank God. Please, please do not be on the side of removing these protections for the sake of some misguided loyalty.

This does not equate to students not wanting to be taught by you. No one is arguing against females teaching science. These protections are for women and any one else who feels sexually vulnerable, like men who do not want a prostrate exam from a woman or a rectal exam from a man. By this token it is totally fair.

You need to address the misogyny in your own establishment but diminishing women's rights of choice will not do that (and as a woman and a feminist I do have every sympathy with the work situation).

Is a general surgical ward different to a gynae one? Is having your wound dressing changed for a neck surgery different to a procedure which involves someone putting their hand inside your vagina? In you can’t see the difference then you’re an idiot.

Just book the procedure with someone you know you want basically means don't use drop ins. Which are an integral part of NHS services in many cases.

Fuck that. HCPs don't have a right not to be told the patient wants to be treated by someone of the same sex. That's no more a thing than penises are.

This particular transwoman chose to argue the toss about their gender identity with a patient who was about to undergo an unpleasant procedure and had specifically requested a female nurse. Their behaviour was far more disrespectful than disrespected IMO.

*I don't have a problem with this trans person being a nurse but surely they must be pretty insensitive to realise they will make a lot of patients uncomfortable by working in a gynaecological area,

Do you feel the same about female nurses on say a men's surgical ward?*

I think that men should have the right to be seen by a male nurse if they don't feel comfortable with a female. But I imagine a man would feel equally uncomfortable with a biologically female nurse who identified as a man presenting themselves as a male nurse of they had requested a nurse of the same sex.

Incidentally, this only anecdotal but some men I've spoken to say they prefer female doctors for intimate examinations as they don't like another man touching their private parts.

The idea of just book the person you want relies on knowing who all the practitioners are. Its hardly in common not to be au fait with every clinician at one's local GP practice. If I ask for a woman and am told the nurse is a woman, which i might well be if they're trans, I'm not going to discover this until I get in there.

Selecting someone by name isn't going to help unless you have already met that person. It's increasingly difficult to tell someone's sex from their name as so many girls are being given male names (now called unisex regardless as to how long they have been used for boys) plus of course anyone can change their name to one typical of the other sex should they so desire.

I would for example think it was fairly safe to think that a 'Lily' was female but it's no guarantee anymore.

Actually Morphine I am craps with a tape measure. so that disqualifies Mr from being a bra fitter. is that discriminatory?

And because you think I don't need a bra fitter does that mean you think I should accept a male bra fitter Granny because despite (like you) being treated by many male doctors in the most intimate of ways I would not have a male bra fitter.

Ironically, the two male HCP doing some sort of extensive internal photography on my naked torso was most unpleasant, which I had not anticipated.

But I will stop saying the word bra fitter as I don't want to detail.

Cross post there.

But really, the only way this choose in advance to avoid the need to decline face to face works is if patients are told in advance that Dr X is trans. Is that what you're suggesting morphene? Because that works for me, but I suspect it wouldn't go down well in some quarters.

I think it is disgraceful to call the trauma of a woman who was raped "whining".

I think it's despiccable how these men are catered to and women are told to shut up.

I'm confused. You say that women should be able to book a female HCP if they want one, however when the woman in the article did this and was given a transwoman you blame the woman for saying no, that this person was male and she was not ok with that? Presumably you think she should have kept her mouth shut, kept her extreme discomfort to herself and suffered the smear to go ahead to protect the transwoman? Basically your argument is that transwomen are biologically female and people of xx chromosomes need to shut up and put their own feelings and needs second.

It would be lovely to book only with a specific named person you know, but if someone only goes to the surgery yearly for a smear and is offered an appointment with Tracy Jones or Amy Brown neither of whom they've ever met, how are they supposed to know if they are of the female sex or transwomen?

If men are actually concerned about being nursed by women, then they will of course start applying to train to be nurses. However, I assume very few will, because of the long hours, crap pay, arse wiping etc.

some men I've spoken to say they prefer female doctors for intimate examinations as they don't like another man touching their private parts.

Yes. For many men the thought and experience of feeling sexually vulnerable is an unpleasant one. It's often the point they start to get how women feel much of the time.

wanttobe8stoneagain

Trouble is you can self identify as anything. Would people be as comfortable with an adult self identifying as a 4 year old and gaining access to children only spaces? I fail to see how this is any different.

I agree with this ^^

What is to stop a 50 year old, who self identifies as a 15 year old, demanding entrance to Y11 at the local comp, because he “feels” like a 15 year old, acts like one and dresses like one?

Lizzie you may want to google Stefonknee Walscht, a well known Canadian transwoman who transitioned in middle age leaving a wife and family, and identifies as a six year old girl. He lives with his sexual partners, including 'daddy' with whom Stefonknee enjoys anal sex.

As yet, I don't think Stefonknee has requested to exercise his identity in terms of accessing the local day care or ballet class with other six year olds, but someone will given time. This is for some of the people within the trans movement, a mens sexual rights movement. There are a going to be a lot of issues coming up about whose rights clash with whose and what barriers society is prepared to move.

Sparkly thank you for that info, I will look tomorrow as I haven’t the stomach for it just now.

Today we’ve heard about a trans nurse trying to give a smear to a woman who wanted a real woman to do it. (Am I allowed to say that?) We’ve also had the men in bikinis swimming in the womens’ only pool in London.

I wonder what tomorrow will bring?

Happy New Year one and all.

nobody gets told to their face that the simple existence of their penis means they can't perform a medical procedure they are perfectly capable of performing professionally.

It's not that they 'can't'. Requesting someone else is not a slighting of their professional competence.

It's that they should not expect patients to indulge their roleplaying at a time when the patient may well be concerned about their own health and not really up for participation as interactive audience in the performance of femininity on the part of the HCP.

It is about the preference of the patient, and a biologically male HCP who 'feels' discriminated against can surely get over himself, because he is a professional after all, and realises his job is not all about him.

It literally does not affect your life, but you are all off your faces with fear and bigotry.

.... of course trans issues affects women's lives, your on a thread demonstrating that, without even going into the changing room, toilet, women's shelters, women sports issues.

And females don't have a penis ffs.

morphene well, i for one am glad this ridiculous situation is finally being picked up by the main stream press and exposed for what it is.

Well lets see...she walked into the room and some one said, your a man.

Then the newspapers got hold of the story for a good bit more trans bashing

You forgot the bit in between where the trans woman contradicted the patient and insisted she was a woman.