To think that women should be able to request a female doctor or nurse?

[Betti935]

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/the-female-nhs-nurse-i-asked-for-came-with-stubble-83rq9p0gg

Summary: A woman requested a female nurse to carry out her cervical smear test. When she arrived the nurse was clearly male (stubble, deep voice etc). When she questioned this, the nurse insisted that they were a woman because they were trans. The patient says she was made to feel like a bigot and in the end decided not to go ahead with the smear test.

Now in this case, the NHS Trust has apologised and said that the nurse did not handle the situation appropriately. However the government are planning to introduce into law the recommendations of the Women and Equalities Committee which include, not only allowing men to 'self-identify' as women without any medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, but also to get rid of the exemptions currently in place.

Currently, while biological males can legally 'become' women (following a diagnosis of gender dysphoria - there is already no requirement to have any hormone treatment or surgery), there are some limited exemptions in law:

“If a service provider provides single or separate sex services for women and men, or provides services differently to women and men, they should treat transsexual people according to the gender role in which they present. However, the Act does permit the service provider to provide a different service or exclude a person from the service, who is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or who has undergone, gender reassignment. This will only be lawful where the exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.” For example, it is currently legal for a group counselling session for female rape victims to exclude biological males if female clients would be not feel able to attend and participate in the group if they were present.

If this new legislation is passed and there are no exemptions allowing for transwomen (biological males) to be treated differently from biological women, there will be no way to protect vulnerable women who don't feel able to access rape services or medical services if they can't be sure of a female-only service.

This won't be like other rights conflicts (e.g. on sexual orientation versus religion) where test cases go to court and judgements are made because women won't exist as a separate protected group from transwomen.

Morphene re the bra fitting, if I take my dd to buy a new bra at our local lingerie shop we expect all the bra fitters to be female - mainly because in practice they are but also because it would be a very odd job choice for a boy/man and I'd wonder both about their state of mind and also about the motivation of a store that employed a male bra fitter as they would know it would more than likely make their customers very uncomfortable.

If she then took her bras into a fitting room and asked for assistance and the assistance turned out to be unexpectedly male she'd be extremely embarrassed and want to leave immediately. I can't imagine her reaction is in any way unusual, very few females are comfortable with strange men looking at or touching their breasts.

If men can request a male doctor or nurse then it should be the same for women.

stitch, no, I think if you have a problem with male bra fitters you should seek out a female one rather than take whatever comes and then directly discriminate against them to their face if their sex doesn't suit you.

lizzie ahh some of that lovely reasoned debate I was told I was getting again....

Thanks love...

But what happens if you book a fitting with a store offering a woman and you get there but it's a biological male?

And what about drop in NHS services? These clearly aren't going anywhere morphene, so what happens there?

The employee exposed himself to the situation. He was told by the patient that she would prefer a female, at that point he should have simply either fetched a female or rescheduled the appointment to a time when a female could carry out the procedure. Instead he put his own need to validation above the needs of the patient and said that he was a woman. That is the issue.

or you could just ask people to specify at point of booking the smear test?

I didn't suggest people would need to prove or demonstrate some reason for their choice...just specify beforehand so that you don't have the situation of someone walking in to do a test and being told their sex disqualifies them.

This is the system we have at the moment

Either sex can request a HCP the same sex as them and, at least for non-emergency intimate procedures, this is honoured as far as possible.

All that needs to happen is for transwomen HCPs to understand and respect that when a woman specifies a female HCP she doesn't mean them. And that if the woman's rights are not respected in this situation she has recourse to the law.

Transwomen are no more discriminated against than their male colleagues in this situation.

Sex is a protected characteristic.

granny both absolutely can...that isn't in doubt. I'm concerned with how HCPs can be respected WHILE maintaining the absolute choice of who treats you.

Morpheme, in this specific situation how was the HCP disrespected?

All that needs to happen is for transwomen HCPs to understand and respect that when a woman specifies a female HCP she doesn't mean them

Quite.

Stop over-complicating things Morphene - when a woman specifies a female HCP, she means a female HCP.

Well lets see...she walked into the room and some one said, your a man.

Then the newspapers got hold of the story for a good bit more trans bashing along the lines of hohoho he says he isn't a male but trans - but he's got stubble and a low voice and tattoos hahaha how ridiculous. I mean are we pretending we think this was a successful day at the office, living the transexual dream? I'm thinking not.

Its isn't clear if the decision that they were the right person for this specific treatment was made by the individual nurse, or if they were scheduled centrally to do the smear in error.

Morphine hoe would I know if they were make it female. I could say is your bra fitter female, and get the same situatik as the case here!

The fitter was female, if they had not been female I would have walked. Much as I do not go out of my way to offend anyone, worrying about someone's feelings compared to my daughter would be no where on my horizon.

As others say it is only problematic because society is choosing to say an anatomically correct XY male is a woman. And if that particular person were not in a job that could compromise patient's choice it would not be an issue.

The stubble alerted the woman to the fact the person was not female. Had this been a woman with stubble (yes, they do exist) it would not be the issue that the person was not female.

It may be offensive to tell random trans women they don't pass but when the trans woman is attempting to pass as female in order to do the procedure against the patient's wishes it seems wholly appropriate to state that. Pretending we don't recognise males is all part of the gaslighting that is going on!

To my knowledge, no one is in Tesco asking to not be served by a trans woman, and if they were I would say join another line at Tesco. I'd not be supporting discrimination but this is different.

Morphene I assumed they could, just wondered why the OP specified women as men might be just as bothered. So why not ask if people can ask for a doctor or nurse of the same sex? Just seems more logical to me.

I don't get the comparison with a bra fitter, HCP can't really be compared to a bra fitter (many years ago I was a bra fitter and can't see the link.)

Morphene Sun 31-Dec-17 22:30:35
lizzie ahh some of that lovely reasoned debate I was told I was getting again...

What you want is a debate where the phrase 'female-who-has-a-penis' is taken seriously and not questioned.

You may like to revisit the definition of 'scientific fact'.

Male HCPs who are TIMs should have a bit of common sense and a bit of empathy with the women they claim to be, and understand that some women don’t want men to examine them internally. Women shouldn’t have to give any reason for this. Thankfully we don’t live in The Handmaid’s Tale where all the drs are male and internal examinations are compulsory (yet).
TIM nurses thinking it’s ok for them to perform a smear on a woman who has requested a female nurse is the natural conclusion of women being polite and claiming that we see them as real women. When it comes down to it, no, most people don’t, actually.

The patient specified that she wanted a female practitioner ahead of the appointment, why do you feel the patient was being discriminatory FFS? She was sent a man when she explicitly asked for a woman, as she was fully within her rights to do. At this point I am also thinking goady fucker or thick too.

To return to the point of the thread, if the new legislation does go through it would be very VERY much better if people book smears with a named individual they know to meet their needs, as selecting 'female' HCP will not guarantee anything.

So I would suggest people stop assuming services are single sex when they may well soon become single gender.

Bra fitter with adam's apple, makeup, false boobs, nail polish and stubble - women from age 11 to 99 may not want that, Grannytomine.

It comes down to the question of being allowed to specify what sex will see your naked body, or touch it.

Granny, the link is that bra fitting is isually done by females. Now at least one shop has a trans woman as a bra fitter. I was asking Morphine if it was ok for me not to want my teenage dd seen by a male as a bra fitter.

Oh yes, and to add to my list of physical characteristics - a penis. One of the important body parts that makes a person 'not female'.

Had my first smear nearly 50 years ago. My GP did it, that was quite common then and as most GPs were men it never occurred to me that it was a problem. When I had my children my Obstetricians were men, 3 different men over 4 pregnancies. My gynaecologist was a man as well. I've always thought sex was disregarded with HCP.

I remember being in hospital about 40 years ago and a young woman objected to being examined by a black doctor as she didn't want his dirty hands on her. Caused quite a scene but she was told he was the specialist and if she wanted treatment it was him or no one.

Italiangreyhound I understand that but a bra fitter isn't medically trained so I don't think it is comparable. At the end of the day you don't really need a bra fitter in the way you need a HCP. Believe me, I was one.

Trans women and trans men should be aware that certain jobs will not be appropriate for them. Just as I, an English person, (and Christian and female) would not apply to be a French chef, a rabbi or a sperm donor. It's hardly limiting my life choices hugely to acknowledge those roles aren't for me.

This is a very good point ialiangreyhound, there are physical and mental limitations for most jobs, I am a 5 foot weakling so I'll never work on a building site or as a refuse collector. I'm shit at maths so will never be an accountant.

I don't have a problem with this trans person being a nurse but surely they must be pretty insensitive to realise they will make a lot of patients uncomfortable by working in a gynaecological area, than if they'd chosen one of dozens of other areas of healthcare to practice in? That in turn makes me question their suitability for the role if they can't understand what a sensitive area of health care this is.

This person has put their own needs for validation as a female above their patients as well as the NHS, who are too cash strapped to have to work around having someone that Alot of women will object to treating them so can't use to their full capacity.

Well I do think that selecting a doctor or nurse on sex is discriminatory. I've never personally felt there is any difference. I'd marginally prefer a male bra fitter if I ever lost the ability to use a tape measure all by myself....

However I completely accept that there are many many women out there who cannot feel comfortable being seen by a man. Their comfort as the patient should be paramount and certainly far FAR more important than the minor discrimination it incurs. I therefore believe it is entirely reasonable to allow people to select their HCPs, but that that doesn't stop it being discriminatory to be on the receiving end of such selections.

Where possible the feeling of being discriminated against should be minimised in day to day work. It would be better if procedures are not booked with people who will be told their sex means they are being refused.

So you know...just book the procedure with someone you want to do it. Male nurses end up doing slightly more vaccinations etc. female nurses do more smears...nobody gets told to their face that the simple existence of their penis means they can't perform a medical procedure they are perfectly capable of performing professionally.

I don't have a problem with this trans person being a nurse but surely they must be pretty insensitive to realise they will make a lot of patients uncomfortable by working in a gynaecological area, Do you feel the same about female nurses on say a men's surgical ward?