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Original poster

To think that women should be able to request a female doctor or nurse?

811 replies

Betti935 · 31/12/2017 01:15

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/the-female-nhs-nurse-i-asked-for-came-with-stubble-83rq9p0gg

Summary: A woman requested a female nurse to carry out her cervical smear test. When she arrived the nurse was clearly male (stubble, deep voice etc). When she questioned this, the nurse insisted that they were a woman because they were trans. The patient says she was made to feel like a bigot and in the end decided not to go ahead with the smear test.

Now in this case, the NHS Trust has apologised and said that the nurse did not handle the situation appropriately. However the government are planning to introduce into law the recommendations of the Women and Equalities Committee which include, not only allowing men to 'self-identify' as women without any medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, but also to get rid of the exemptions currently in place.

Currently, while biological males can legally 'become' women (following a diagnosis of gender dysphoria - there is already no requirement to have any hormone treatment or surgery), there are some limited exemptions in law:

“If a service provider provides single or separate sex services for women and men, or provides services differently to women and men, they should treat transsexual people according to the gender role in which they present. However, the Act does permit the service provider to provide a different service or exclude a person from the service, who is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or who has undergone, gender reassignment. This will only be lawful where the exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.” For example, it is currently legal for a group counselling session for female rape victims to exclude biological males if female clients would be not feel able to attend and participate in the group if they were present.

If this new legislation is passed and there are no exemptions allowing for transwomen (biological males) to be treated differently from biological women, there will be no way to protect vulnerable women who don't feel able to access rape services or medical services if they can't be sure of a female-only service.

This won't be like other rights conflicts (e.g. on sexual orientation versus religion) where test cases go to court and judgements are made because women won't exist as a separate protected group from transwomen.

OP posts:
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Morphene · 31/12/2017 22:05

italian yes of course.

But saying 'I don't want that particular female-who-has-a-penis' is problematic in a way that saying 'I would like to book my smear with Nurse happens-to-have-a-vagina--and-did-a-good-job-last-time' isn't.

The NHS is ALL about the choose and book these days. For anything non-emergency there is just no reason not to be actively selecting someone you are comfortable with instead of going for pot luck that exposes NHS staff to discrimination.

IrkThePurist · 31/12/2017 22:08

Its not discrimination. Thats just not what discrimination means.

IsaSchmisa · 31/12/2017 22:09

Firstly, females don't have penises. So nobody should be discussing being treated by a bepenised female because that's not a thing. But secondly, saying you don't want to be treated by someone with a penis isn't even slightly problematic. It is zero amount of problematic. Its 100% acceptable.

Morphene · 31/12/2017 22:10

italian no chance...I'm a female physics professor. I'm stuck with them. Its unusual to get through a day without some sort of 'othering' behaviour, usually from students, but sometimes from staff too.

Anyway, while it is obvious that medical procedures should place patients first, they are still (at the moment) carried out by human beings. We shouldn't be happy with a system that exposes anyone whose face doesn't fit in the work place to overt discrimination day in day out. Not if we can come up with a better way that still gives the patients exactly what they require.

MadgeMak · 31/12/2017 22:14

Face doesn’t fit?! Missing the point much

Morphene · 31/12/2017 22:14

It really is discrimination...how is it not?

If I walk into the lab and a student asks where the 'real' staff member is, or on a bad day refuses to be taught by a woman, then how is that NOT discrimination?

I'm competent to do the job, the only reason I'm being dismissed is my sex. Its sexism.

Morphene · 31/12/2017 22:15

madge given the offending 'non-passing' feature in this case was cited as stubble...face not fitting was indeed a part of the issue...

MadgeMak · 31/12/2017 22:16

Your work situation is sexism. Me wanting a biological female only to touch my genitals is not.

IsaSchmisa · 31/12/2017 22:17

There's nothing wrong with better booking systems, and most of us would like women not to be faced with a biological male for a procedure when they're expecting a woman. It's just the way to do this isn't by othering the women who ask for a female, setting up allowing biological males to attend women who've asked for a woman as the norm.

mathanxiety · 31/12/2017 22:17

But saying 'I don't want that particular female-who-has-a-penis' is problematic in a way that saying 'I would like to book my smear with Nurse happens-to-have-a-vagina--and-did-a-good-job-last-time' isn't.

Females do not have penises Morphene.

It's not one bit problematic to refuse to be treated or touched by a person with a penis.

Women do not have to give a person with a penis a chance and make a decision on who touches them based on previous performance. If a women does not want a person with a penis performing a pap smear or a breast exam or assisting at a delivery she doesn't have to have that person with a penis doing that.

thebewilderness · 31/12/2017 22:18

I suppose that the "clerical error" is the policy of identifying nurses by their gender identity instead of their sex.

nooka · 31/12/2017 22:18

The patient in the news story didn't book for a smear at her GPs as it was a hospital trust that apologised. I agree that when booking at your GP you can usually specify by name the GP or nurse you are making an appointment with, and you are likely to have already met that person so have an idea as to who you will be seeing. However if you are booking at a family planning or sexual health clinic neither are likely to be the case, so you may well only be able to specify that you want a female clinician.

MadgeMak · 31/12/2017 22:18

No. It wasn’t his face that didn’t fit. It was the fact he was a man and she wanted a woman to perform an intimate exam.

mathanxiety · 31/12/2017 22:20

There is a difference between being taught by someone, and having someone's fingers up your vagina or their on your breast, or viewing your female genitalia.

Not sure why you can't make the distinction here.

Morphene · 31/12/2017 22:20

regarding bra fitters, I don't think it would be unreasonable to go to a shop and see a specific bra fitter who happened to be female. I think it would be unreasonable to take a pot luck fitter then dismiss them purely for being male (if they happened to be so).

stitchglitched · 31/12/2017 22:21

His face didn't fit because it was a man's face when the patient had requested a woman. Which she is entitled to do according to NHS policy.

nooka · 31/12/2017 22:21

I suspect that the clerical error was not recording / noticing that the patient asked for a female clinician. Or at least I hope so as otherwise the TIM disregarded the patient's wishes entirely.

LizzieSiddal · 31/12/2017 22:22

I’m really very confused. The Trust has apologised for this “incident” (read HUGE FUCK UP) so why is anyone on this thread trying to justify it or explain why it isn’t a problem?

I expect and hope every NHS trust will be writing emails as we speak, to their staff, stating this should NEVER happen again.

Morphene · 31/12/2017 22:24

math and yet people with penises also deserve to be able to work without having sexism thrown at them all the time....so if a way can be found to meet both those needs, and I think booking smears with individuals does that, then why not?

IsaSchmisa · 31/12/2017 22:25

Yy math.

If you're not happy about the tone people are taking with you morphene you could try not minimising women's concerns and describing them as discrimination. We've heard much more from you about employment rights that don't actually exist than we have about the legitimacy of a woman's desire not to be treated by a male.

stitchglitched · 31/12/2017 22:25

You think a woman would be unreasonable to decline a male bra fitter? Do you think a woman should grit her teeth and let a man touch her against her wishes so that she doesn't offend him?

LizzieSiddal · 31/12/2017 22:26

math and yet people with penises also deserve to be able to work without having sexism thrown at them all the time..

Hmm You’re either a goady fucker or as thick as pigshit.
MadgeMak · 31/12/2017 22:26

The problem was that the HCP in question when told by the patient that she wanted a female practitioner, replied that he was female. When he clearly wasn’t.

Morphene · 31/12/2017 22:26

I don't think the trust should have done what they did, I'm glad they admitted the mistake. I hope they apologised to the patient profusely. I hope they also apologised to the employee who should not have been exposed to that situation either.

I do think the NHS should find a way to operate that both protects patients and their choices about who and how they are treated, but which also minimises the impact of discrimination on employees. They seem to be fucking up both ends of the transaction at the moment.

IsaSchmisa · 31/12/2017 22:26

Wanting to be treated by someone of the same sex as you isn't sexism.

Hth.

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