To think that women should be able to request a female doctor or nurse?

[Betti935]

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/the-female-nhs-nurse-i-asked-for-came-with-stubble-83rq9p0gg

Summary: A woman requested a female nurse to carry out her cervical smear test. When she arrived the nurse was clearly male (stubble, deep voice etc). When she questioned this, the nurse insisted that they were a woman because they were trans. The patient says she was made to feel like a bigot and in the end decided not to go ahead with the smear test.

Now in this case, the NHS Trust has apologised and said that the nurse did not handle the situation appropriately. However the government are planning to introduce into law the recommendations of the Women and Equalities Committee which include, not only allowing men to 'self-identify' as women without any medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, but also to get rid of the exemptions currently in place.

Currently, while biological males can legally 'become' women (following a diagnosis of gender dysphoria - there is already no requirement to have any hormone treatment or surgery), there are some limited exemptions in law:

“If a service provider provides single or separate sex services for women and men, or provides services differently to women and men, they should treat transsexual people according to the gender role in which they present. However, the Act does permit the service provider to provide a different service or exclude a person from the service, who is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or who has undergone, gender reassignment. This will only be lawful where the exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.” For example, it is currently legal for a group counselling session for female rape victims to exclude biological males if female clients would be not feel able to attend and participate in the group if they were present.

If this new legislation is passed and there are no exemptions allowing for transwomen (biological males) to be treated differently from biological women, there will be no way to protect vulnerable women who don't feel able to access rape services or medical services if they can't be sure of a female-only service.

This won't be like other rights conflicts (e.g. on sexual orientation versus religion) where test cases go to court and judgements are made because women won't exist as a separate protected group from transwomen.

That would be a TERF list, wouldn't it?

There are girls in the UK who don't go to fucking school because they have no sanitary products. So you can fuck right off with your privileged shit. What is privileged is males demanding to access female spaces because they are unhappy with their bodies or have a sexual fetish.

Why is all about the males?

Ans why do so many women support the males' feelings and demands unquestioningly and without any regard to the females?

No one has 'shouted down' anything or anyone, they've merely debated and responded to points raised. As is supposed to happen on a talk forum. You suggested a potential solution, you're upset with people sharing the potential problems that they can see would come from it and are implying that they were unkind and wrong to do so.

Again, disagreement is not attack. Words are not violence. We are not even at war with Eurasia.

why do so many women support the males' feelings and demands unquestioningly and without any regard to the females?

That same question has really stood out to me today on this thread and others Assigned .

I think it's because women have been so conditioned to do so. I certainly grew up in a household of (lovely) men where I was taught by example and by listening to conversation that men got the best and the most to eat, men shouldn't do housework, it was women's responsibility to keep the house nice and have meals ready on time as needed, to always put the wants and feelings and needs of the men first. The disapproval of older women in the family for doing otherwise was strong. To many, the whole phrase women's rights is a bit rude and selfish and unpleasant. Because it makes some men uncomfortable, and by extension it makes the women around those men uncomfortable because they don't like the results of those men being annoyed.

One of the most passionately irrational MIL defenders on the forum has mentioned more than once that she was forced to care for an extremely abusive and unpleasant MIL for years with no chance of escape, so to listen to women encouraging each other to stand up to abuse, refuse to take it and walk away is too threatening for her to listen to. I think it's the same with many 'allies'. Its about pleasing those you want to stay in with, because of the privileges and pats involved. It's also about hope that if you're a good girl, you won't be one of the ones they turn on. One of the things that chilled me most at Speakers' Corner was seeing one of those allies, a young woman, reach out towards one of the violent men with a gentle 'hey, whoa' gesture. He turned on her, walked into her face and swore at her with so much threat in his face and body it was chilling. She was clearly scared.

It's really sad that so many women are so soaked in misogyny they don't question why their own sense of worth or their value for other women is so low.

Applauds AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth, Pencils, PricklyBall, et al.

Morphene, sometimes an idea is simply so stupid, so misguided, and so spectacularly fails to address any problem but that of the trans individual that nearly every woman immediately responds to point that out. This is not 'being shouted down'. It is comprehensive disagreement. It is an attempt to educate you.

I don't know how the hell we have got here I really don't know Peanut

I know I hid the thread but that poster appears to have left so I would like to come back.

Can i just say my smear is mine. It is done for my benefit. For my health. Why should my smear be about another persons feelings?
Why should a procedure that is absolutly all about me and only benefits me include another persons opinion or feelings or validation?

There's also a glaringly obvious difference in the way even male feelings are taken seriously over womens' when it comes to male violence and fear of it.

Female and don't wish to be in places of vulnerability with males = hysterical, bigoted, self-absorbed, put up and shut up, etc.

Transwoman and don't wish to be in places of vulnerability with males = of course not, how horrendously cruel to suggest this, how terrifying for them, how risky for their personal safety.

Spot the difference.

It is a lifetime of conditioning and one hell of a job to unpack and deconstruct.
2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a hate crime.

Wow...I got shouted down for simply suggesting a way to avoid causing unnecessary grief to transwomen while entirely continuing to preserve everyones right to choose who does intimate exams on them. Apparently that was still far to anti-women...for reasons that entirely escape me.

The way you write this suggests you think the problem is with the posters who pointed out the problems with your suggestion, rather than with your understanding. Which is mystifying.

But since you're so pro-list, why don't we flip your suggestion a bit. Let's have a list of all the patients who are ok with having a biological male for an intimate exam when they've specifically requested a woman.

I hope all you women who have been endlessly going on about the GRA realise how many women you have awakened. Thank you all.

blink 38 people were found guilty of that Section 58 offence between 1984 and 2015.
It's not a huge criminal problem, unlike the 84000 rapes a year, the vast majority of which don't result in a prosecution.

Can i just say my smear is mine. It is done for my benefit. For my health. Why should my smear be about another persons feelings?
Yes. Nailed it. Bad enough we have to have the bloody things in the first place. Another example of our cis-privilege I guess.

I hope all you women who have been endlessly going on about the GRA realise how many women you have awakened. Thank you all.

Boyslikepink Thank you.

Why does correcting your false claims about the law and objecting to being put a register mean you are being 'shouted down' Morphene? Why doesn't it just mean that posters don't agree with your views?

You talk about not wanting to cause unnecessary grief to transwomen, what about actual women who you think should be forced to go on a list and disclose trauma in order to get a service that the NHS is already supposed to provide? You don't think that might cause women unnecessary grief? To access a life saving service rather than just to obtain validation of their gender identity? You appear to want to prioritise men's feelings over women's health.

Morphene
If you want to start putting women on lists, create a list of women and men who are happy to use unisex services, mixed wards and any member of staff. Make it opt in.

Don't single out women from certain groups, religions, or abuse survivors for special treatment. And don't get huffy when women don't like it.
Its no better than the rape clause for child benefit.

SparklyUnicornTractors your post really resonated with me. I've noticed on other threads some women (I assumed) saying not all men blah blah, women don't need to fear all men etc. And it turned out they had been victims of abuse. It almost felt they were so determined not to be 'labelled' or seriously affected by the abuse that they suffered that they seemed to be challenging other women's feelings of being fearful of men.

I'd always say '... not all men' but I'd never now assume a situation is safe or reassure people they don't need to take safety measures. We none of us know what others might be capable of.

So even if most doctors are safe etc, if a woman (or man) wants a female/male doctor or a chaperone, that is their right. To even question them seems grossly unfair and a form of harassment.

CosmicCanary it is always and always should be about the patient.

irk yes that would work....or you could just ask people to specify at point of booking the smear test?

At my GPs you book a slot with a named nurse for a smear so you would simply be choosing the person you want to do it. If that was rolled out more generally it would eliminate the issue on both sides.

I didn't suggest people would need to prove or demonstrate some reason for their choice...just specify beforehand so that you don't have the situation of someone walking in to do a test and being told their sex disqualifies them.

I'm still failing to see why this idea is so stupid and repugnant as all that. So while I am of course terribly grateful for the 'education' that's been directed my way, it hasn't been successful yet.

My issue is being treated differently on account of my gender at work day in day out, week after week.... Its draining and will eventually build to a level of rage I will no longer be able to contain.

I don't think anyone should have to live with that.

So if there is a way to meet the needs of patients AND HCPs then I think that's worth exploring.

The problem here is that when a woman specifies a female to do a procedure she would most likely expect a female person.

A trans woman, not being a female person, doesn't fit the bill. The trans woman may argue she is 'female gender', I'm sure you know the distinction.

But being female is a biological sex, and a smear is done on a woman's biological body so someone identifying as a woman is not what someone asking for a female has asked for.

HCPs are there to meet the needs of the patients, not the other way round.

Yes HCPs are there to meet the needs of the patient, and if they can’t then they are in the wrong job.

Apologies if this has already been said, but I do like the medical professionals I encounter to have at least a cursory understanding of basic biology...

Morphene I hope you manage to sort out the issues at your work place. Medical procedures are performed wholly for the benefit of the patient.

Trans women and trans men should be aware that certain jobs will not be appropriate for them. Just as I, an English person, (and Christian and female) would not apply to be a French chef, a rabbi or a sperm donor. It's hardly limiting my life choices hugely to acknowledge those roles aren't for me.

How about my question to a former poster, which I can't see got answered.

Would I be OK to expect a bra fitter for my teenage dd to be female? If they were not, could I walk away and explain to dd why a male bra fitter was not OK?

Very few jobs require touching and probing women's bodies; is it too much to expect males to stay away from those jobs or at least to recognise they may not be chosen to do them?