To think that women should be able to request a female doctor or nurse?

[Betti935]

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/the-female-nhs-nurse-i-asked-for-came-with-stubble-83rq9p0gg

Summary: A woman requested a female nurse to carry out her cervical smear test. When she arrived the nurse was clearly male (stubble, deep voice etc). When she questioned this, the nurse insisted that they were a woman because they were trans. The patient says she was made to feel like a bigot and in the end decided not to go ahead with the smear test.

Now in this case, the NHS Trust has apologised and said that the nurse did not handle the situation appropriately. However the government are planning to introduce into law the recommendations of the Women and Equalities Committee which include, not only allowing men to 'self-identify' as women without any medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, but also to get rid of the exemptions currently in place.

Currently, while biological males can legally 'become' women (following a diagnosis of gender dysphoria - there is already no requirement to have any hormone treatment or surgery), there are some limited exemptions in law:

“If a service provider provides single or separate sex services for women and men, or provides services differently to women and men, they should treat transsexual people according to the gender role in which they present. However, the Act does permit the service provider to provide a different service or exclude a person from the service, who is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or who has undergone, gender reassignment. This will only be lawful where the exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.” For example, it is currently legal for a group counselling session for female rape victims to exclude biological males if female clients would be not feel able to attend and participate in the group if they were present.

If this new legislation is passed and there are no exemptions allowing for transwomen (biological males) to be treated differently from biological women, there will be no way to protect vulnerable women who don't feel able to access rape services or medical services if they can't be sure of a female-only service.

This won't be like other rights conflicts (e.g. on sexual orientation versus religion) where test cases go to court and judgements are made because women won't exist as a separate protected group from transwomen.

The most stupid load of tosh ever - people are people - their reproductive organs make no difference.

This is the third time of asking this, and the third time you've ignored it.

If it doesn't make a difference, how come those with a penis commit 98% percent of sexually violent crime?

How come it is those with a uterus who constitute the 85,000 'people' who are raped in England and Wales each year?

April, the NHS isent free, and it's my right as a patient to have who I want perform an intimate examination. Why should the rights of a HCP trump that of the patient. There are all manner of totally valid reasons why a woman might not want a trans woman to perform an intimate examination, especially now, anyone can identify as a woman for whatever reasons.

I do disagree with it - yes. So what do you do if the exact personal preference cannot be found - my answer is to say, take it or leave it - but not clear what yours is?

That would be because I'm asking a question, not answering it.

I asked you how exactly your plan to refuse an alternative to those wanting to refuse a particular HCP would work, since it's got more holes in it than my oldest leggings. You said do the same as we do now if a person refuses to be treated on the grounds of race. But what we'd do now is not tell that person it's Nurse Caucasian or nobody.

So much as I'd be happy to simply carry on with things are they are now, ie the exception, you're saying you want to end this. So, tell us how it would work.

Consent is the thing here. This woman did not consent to being examined in a private area by a male bodied person.

Surely that is the definition of sexual assault.

Sorry, the first paragraph of my above post ought to have been highlighted as a quote. I was replying to blink there. Would hate anyone to think those were my words- how embarrassing!

She did right to decline as she felt uncomfortable. Not appropriate for the nurse to challenge this.
And it's fine to request a female/male doctor or nurse as long as you respect the fact that in some circumstances, there might not be one available. The NHS is understaffed.

I think boundaries should be respected. I would imagine there are quite a few women who for reasons of religion or whatever prefer to have a woman doctor.

Though to be honest I find male doctors a lot gentler!

However I know the post was about a trans person. Not every woman would feel ok with this.

On another note I am not happy with sharing a toilet wash area with men at all. Just do not want them around me when I am in the loo. For fucks sake we women have to bloody well queue so fuck off!

Datun

Ignored because it generally isn't worth answering, but I'll give you the obvious answers you crave.

Rape is defined as a crime only men can commit, so by definition all rapes are by men.

Equally you'll find 100% of offenders of Section 58 of the Offences against the Person Act 1861 are women. Yet we don't say all women are responsible for stopping those that do induce their own miscarriage.

I strongly suspect the 98% of sexual assaults is very much based on norms of society, where men don't report sexual assault by women. I'd probably accept that strength of males would lead to a higher number of men offending - but it would be foolish to think that these sorts of statistics do not have inherent bias in them because of underlying collection. Just using the rape statistic above (when by definition it must be the case), shows how statistics like these are meaningless and brought out when there is no better argument.

The breathtaking arrogance and stupidity of some posters on this thread has astounded me. I haven’t been raped or seriously sexually assaulted but I would still want a female HCP to conduct my smear. I don’t care whether you don’t mind a man, I do, and I get to decide who touches my genitals.

People always talk about transwomen having an inner essence, an identity, a sense of whether they are men or women. Which might sound plausible, until you actually describe it

Plus, this is not something in common with women. I dont know any women who have an 'inner essence of being women'.

Women: we are women because of our common biology; chromosomes, tits, uterus, periods, ovaries, babies, breast feeding etc

TIMs: We dont have any of that, but we know we are women because we feel like women inside

Women: oh really, we dont have that, what does that feel like?

TIMs: well, i am sensitive and like frocks and make up and i just know i am a woman

Women:

Rape isn’t the only violent sexual crime, blink.

I woulf be interrsted to here whether TIMs would be happy to have intimate examinations by male doctots, if they tequested a female

Blink66

You must be absolutely saturated with jumping the shark to such a breathtaking height.

How you can consider self-inflicted/Illegal abortion in the same breath as sex offending is quite disgraceful. Whilst at the same time deciding that rape statistics are meaningless?

I suppose the two women killed a week by their male partner is also somehow biased and meaningless?

It's not two men a week who are killed by women, is it?

I suppose the #metoo campaign was also meaningless. As was the millions of dollars that Harvey Weinstein spent to try and shut women up.

As are the stories from women on this very thread?

If you're going to deny that male violence exists, it's pointless talking to you.

You're either lack comprehension, can't read properly or are a misogynist.

A true "healthcare provider" would want to put the needs of the patient first.

April229

"I am baffled by some of the posts here." That's ok a few posts here are fairly upsetting at their lack of empathy for women!

"Except for those who have been abused in the past, I am really surprised that so many people would object to medical care on the basis of the provider being male."

Some posters have not said they object to intimate treatment from males (including me) but I fully accept and defend the roghts of all females (and males) to only feel comfortable with intimate treatment by same sex HCP.

"...we are lucky enough to receive in the uk." Not luck, as others say, a service we pay for.

"...being PROFESSIONAL. They don’t care that it’s your fanny they are just getting their job done before they can go home."

With respect, you do not know this for sure. In the majority of cases this may well be true.

It's not the mind of the male HCP that is the main concern here for some, I expect, it is the mind of the patient, and her body. We can have no definite idea what is in other's minds! Unless they express their views, and we take the time to listen!

"...a bit judgemental to assume that all men, even HCP’s only have sex on their mine"

I do not think all posters are assuming this for a moment! Plus is it not equally the case that you are being judgemental assuming you know the needs of other female patients. Even in the face of them stating the opposite of your expectations?

I can quite believe that there is a problem with under-reporting of sexual assaults on men. But 50-fold? Pull the other one. And, incidentally, there is a problem with under-reporting of sexual assaults on women. Because of victim blaming. Because of insensitive responses by other people (of which we've seen more than our fair share on this thread). Also, can I throw into the mix the 12,000 men in England and Wales who are raped... by other men? How anyone can, with a straight face, claim that the reason it looks like men commit most of the sexual violence in our society is simply because the statistics are skewed, just boggles the imagination.

Jumping the shark. Yup, that about sums it up.

People who tell abuse survivors to get over themselves are being abusive themselves. Survivors have the right to be heard, and to have boundaries.

People who tell PTSD survivors to get over it should go tell veterans to get over their shell shock.

People who insist all spaces and services should be single sex are racist and sexist. Telling WOC who want women only spaces that they are no different from white supremacists just shows your own privilege.

"Whilst I don't want to be on a mixed ward, tbh I don't want a shared ward at all!"

Blink, I did read what you stated. That's why I quoted it. I've quoted it again.

You mean that you are in favour of mixed sex wards? Because it doesn't read like that. It reads like you don't want to be on mixed sex wards at all and further to that, you don't really want to have to share with women either. That your ideal would be a single room, sharing with nobody.

If you want all wards to be mixed sex, then fine. But that's not what you said.

I am just pointing out that it is more of an issue in this privileged country
You are incorrect, unless you mean that in privileged countries women are sometimes able to talk about the issue. What women do in less privileged countries who are faced with medical care from a man, or no medical care at all, choose no medical care at all. I consider that a huge issue.

Oh, April posted a blinder of a statement that got deleted on a thread about post-natal women having to share the ward with partners, basically telling them that lots of random people will have seen their vagina during labour and delivery so therefore women just need to suck up sharing sleeping space overnight with a load of random blokes. It was a real corker.

Wow...I got shouted down for simply suggesting a way to avoid causing unnecessary grief to transwomen while entirely continuing to preserve everyones right to choose who does intimate exams on them. Apparently that was still far to anti-women...for reasons that entirely escape me.

The "you're so privileged" brigade are astonishingly ignorant of the situation in some countries. There have been numerous reports (like this BBC article) on, for instance, the way the lack of women's toilets in India put women at risk of rape. Seriously - there are countries where women can't even go for a shit for fear of sexual violence, and some idiots (because they are either idiotic or evil - really struggling for another interpretation of the complete lack of empathy being displayed by some on this thread) think that women in poorer countries are likely to be happy with a lack of female medical practitioners because, yay the poor have no choice and you don't hear them complaining, do you?

We don't need some bullshit new system where women have to register their psychological problems in order to get a same sex HCP. Getting a same sex HCP should not depend on having psychological reasons or the willingness to have details of this recorded on some register. We just need the provisions in the Equality Act to be properly understood and used by health care providers.

^^ What Pencils says.

I got shouted down for simply suggesting a way to avoid causing unnecessary grief to transwomen

Transwomen can avoid unneccessary grief by understanding and respecting that when a woman requests a female HCP they do not mean a transwoman.

while entirely continuing to preserve everyones right to choose who does intimate exams on them.

We already have laws that should preserve these rights, they just need using. Your suggestion would only have protected women who request a female HCP because of psychological issues (ignoring the many other reasons a woman might request this) and only then if she was prepared to state these reasons and go on a register.

This is far worse for all women than the current law.