To think that women should be able to request a female doctor or nurse?

[Betti935]

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/the-female-nhs-nurse-i-asked-for-came-with-stubble-83rq9p0gg

Summary: A woman requested a female nurse to carry out her cervical smear test. When she arrived the nurse was clearly male (stubble, deep voice etc). When she questioned this, the nurse insisted that they were a woman because they were trans. The patient says she was made to feel like a bigot and in the end decided not to go ahead with the smear test.

Now in this case, the NHS Trust has apologised and said that the nurse did not handle the situation appropriately. However the government are planning to introduce into law the recommendations of the Women and Equalities Committee which include, not only allowing men to 'self-identify' as women without any medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, but also to get rid of the exemptions currently in place.

Currently, while biological males can legally 'become' women (following a diagnosis of gender dysphoria - there is already no requirement to have any hormone treatment or surgery), there are some limited exemptions in law:

“If a service provider provides single or separate sex services for women and men, or provides services differently to women and men, they should treat transsexual people according to the gender role in which they present. However, the Act does permit the service provider to provide a different service or exclude a person from the service, who is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or who has undergone, gender reassignment. This will only be lawful where the exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.” For example, it is currently legal for a group counselling session for female rape victims to exclude biological males if female clients would be not feel able to attend and participate in the group if they were present.

If this new legislation is passed and there are no exemptions allowing for transwomen (biological males) to be treated differently from biological women, there will be no way to protect vulnerable women who don't feel able to access rape services or medical services if they can't be sure of a female-only service.

This won't be like other rights conflicts (e.g. on sexual orientation versus religion) where test cases go to court and judgements are made because women won't exist as a separate protected group from transwomen.

It always turns into an attack on posters.

Yes, been scared of men when younger, intimidated is probably right rather than threatened - not so much now. Also been scared of some women, but not in the same way - less likely to be physical.

It seriously f*s me off when women try and paint other posters they don't agree with as male. Not only are men not the enemy, but the fact you believe you can spot the difference just reinforces the view that there is a difference in the beliefs/thought processes/brain of men and women. There isn't - one has never been found.

Yes - I understand it was the support of a monogamous relationship - and that is the point. Individuals are just that - they do not represent their sex.

I do not like the fact that trans-men are identifying as women; I don't believe in gender, just act however you want to - but you are the sex that you are. However, unlike most - I think many men and women get too hung up on separating the sexes where its not needed. Having a uterus does not make you an expert in female physiology and having a penis does not make you an expert in male physiology. Whilst I don't want to be on a mixed ward, tbh I don't want a shared ward at all!

Sorry you fail to believe someone can think differently, but that's what makes it interesting!

Having a uterus does not make you an expert in female physiology and having a penis does not make you an expert in male physiology.

Having a uterus means you commit two percent of sexually violent crime. Having a penis means 98 percent.

Do you really not understand the basis for women's oppression? Do you not understand that it is based on their biology? Do you not understand women are not oppressed by mythical beings we can't name?

I am not suggesting that what sex you are means you have better or less knowledge

But I am suggesting that we all should have the choice when having an intimate medical examination what sex the professional is regardless of reasons why

We have progressed or meant to be so that women get equal opportunities and choices and this is how I want things to stay

Yes - I understand it was the support of a monogamous relationship - and that is the point. Individuals are just that - they do not represent their sex

Surely you can see the difference between forging a mutually beneficial and committed, trusting relationship with a man and feeling nervous about a man examining your most intimate areas?

Having a uterus does not make you an expert in female physiology

It gives you a damn good frame of reference if you're talking about an issue that is solely that of a natal woman

Not only are men not the enemy

98% of sexual violence, almost all violence across the globe, 85 000 rapes per year in the UK. Um, they kinda are though. 2 to 3 women die each week in the UK at the hands of men. Not all men obviously but far, far too many. Until men sort out their aggressive behaviour women will need to retain the sex segregated areas they set up in the first place.

You still haven't answered the question though, are you a man of a woman?

Also it isn't a personal attack, it is a question.

"Whilst I don't want to be on a mixed ward, tbh I don't want a shared ward at all!"

Wait, you don't want mixed sex wards, Blink?

It seems a bit strange on the one hand say that female patients should not have the choice to have a female medical professional, but that you should have the choice to be in a female only ward.

Having a uterus does not make you an expert in female physiology

No, which is why I didn't refuse to have a man internally examine my uterus whilst bleeding. When he told me to get dressed whilst the blood was down to my knees and just left the curtain open without offering me any way of trying to clean myself up, let alone a sanpro, (which I was subsequently offered by the female doctor who examined me the next time) by the way, I realised that this was a person who hadn't got a bloody clue what it was like to have blood gushing out of your vagina and be expected to hop up and "just get dressed".

Given the choice I would take a woman in that situation every time. If I were a rape victim I dread to think what danger I would be put in were I not given the choice.

How would it work today if I chose not to have treatment from white members of staff, whether GP's, Paramedics, Ambulance Staff, Porters, etc. because of my personal beliefs?

Just do the same.

Well no, because what happens today is they're supposed to provide you with someone else who doesn't have the offending characteristic, rather than say it's Nurse Caucasian or nobody. They don't always manage it, given shortages, but that's the policy. Something which you have said you disagree with.

So, if you want to end the exception, tell us how it will work. Particularly in the face of people doing what I have said I will do and invent a prior relationship with a HCP I don't want treating me, so they're unable to do it.

"Would you also support somebody refusing care because of skin colour?"

Yes. And I have. Several years ago i worked in a nursing home. One of the patients had been in a Japanese prisoner of war camp during WW2, he also had dementia. The nursing home employed a few Filipino nurses and carers. This man needed personal care. When he was having a bad day due to dementia he would confuse the Filipino staff for Japanese guards and become very distressed. He did not want them any where near him. So we made sure either black or white staff attended his needs. This was not discrimination. The patients care needs came first. The Filipino staff were not offended at all. They realised this man had suffered trauma, he wasn't being racist, he was confused and distressed. They had empathy for the patient and respected his dignity and his right to CHOOSE.

Having a smear is very invasive. Personally I have had loads as they always come back abnormal and I've had 3 loop biopsy's (bits of cervix chopped off) which means when I do have a smear my cervix is often hard to find. There's also the worry of "will it be cancer this time". I feel much more comfortable having a female do the smear. Why? Because she has more than likely experienced a smear herself and because it's my choice.

I do not believe men can magically become women. Trans women should respect that patient choice matters. I can't imagine how awful a smear must be for somebody who has been raped, but I can understand why they would insist a female bodied person do their smear

I'm going to be a pedant - it's not 85,000 women raped in the UK each year as often quoted. It's a far smaller geographical area - it's 85,000 women in England and Wales. Doesn't include Scotland or NI.

I am baffled by some of the posts here. Except for those who have been abused in the past, I am really surprised that so many people would object to medical care on the basis of the provider being male. I am really, really greatful for the health care that we are lucky enough to receive in the uk for free. Greatful for all of it. I have had male and female Hcp during labour and smear tests all of whom provided excellent care and treated it no different from any other medical situation.

I think if we lived in countries with no free medical care we would jump at the chance of any health that was available, if the other option was unsupported labour etc.and credit male HCP with just that, being PROFESSIONAL. They don’t care that it’s your fanny they are just getting their job done before they can go home. It is a bit judgemental to assume that all men, even HCP’s only have sex on their mine when they are at work and therefore that it would some now matter that you are a woman and they are a man during a medical exam.

They are a person doing their job. You are a person requesting medical care.

I can fully understand why women who have, for example, experienced rape prefer a smear test to be done by a woman / a person who does not have a penis.

A person of whatever gender identity or sexual who does not understand this should not be working in a sensitive field

Oh, and the posts assuming that all woman have wombs, all woman have periods, all woman have had children and on those grounds needing these services done by woman - firstly how silly, and secondly, inaccurate and thirdly, would you for that reason refuse surgery from a surgeon who had not had a lump removed or a gallbladder removed or whatever it was that you were having?

I’m afraid one of the reasons I wouldn’t want a transgender person doing my smear is the sheer bloody delusion of it. You want me to lie down with my legs in the air so you can look up my fanny while you play act being a woman for your own gratification ? No thanks.

April229
FFS NHS care isn't free, unless you don't pay tax or NI

Oh, and the posts assuming that all woman have wombs, all woman have periods, all woman have had children and on those grounds needing these services done by woman

If a woman doesn't have a womb she's likely to have had it removed. Hence knows what it's like to have one.

If a woman doesn't have periods she has (a) got a menstrual disorder or (b) taken a step to prevent periods. Ergo she also has the same frame of reference as me.

how silly

Yes indeed. For not having the imagination to work out WHY a female may want to see a female.

And you know what? When I ask to see a female to deal with menstrual issues no, I can't guarantee she's had periods. But I can fully 100% guarantee a man hasn't

In other European countries I could get private medical insurance for about the same amount of NI that I pay.

I don't get the link to race. For obvious reasons we don't racially segregate society in the UK. There would be no good or ethical reasons to do so. But at present we DO sexually segregate. In schools, in changing rooms, in prisons, and so on. It absolutely beggars belief to me that anyone would argue that women-only spaces are wrong in a world where men commit 97% of violent crime, and in the same breath deny the right of women to request a biological woman to attend to their intimate healthcare needs, despite the huge number of women who have suffered trauma at the hands of men. It is sickening.

Except for those who have been abused in the past, I am really surprised that so many people would object to medical care on the basis of the provider being male.

That's nice for you.

RTFT if you'd like to learn more. It's good to see you talk about abuse victims, but you do realise that is a rather large number of women, presumably? Who might not be happy disclosing this when they go for their smear.

I think if we lived in countries with no free medical care we would jump at the chance of any health that was available, if the other option was unsupported labour etc.and credit male HCP with just that, being PROFESSIONAL.

What qualifies you to make this statement? Because throwing in hundreds of millions of women whose lives you don't understand to try and make your point kind of looks a bit disgusting. Additionally, how does this fit with your abuse caveat: you presumably are aware that women in countries with limited healthcare access get abused too?

PersianCatLady

A women - Although really unclear why it makes any difference given nothing I've said is based on my ability to bear children.

Popchyk

Read what I said, not what you want me to have said. I don't want to be on a female ward - as I don't want to be on a shared ward at all, I'd want to be in a non-shared ward, i.e. a room of my own. I fail to see why being in front of women I don't know is any better than being in front of both men and women I don't know!

IsaSchmisa

I do disagree with it - yes. So what do you do if the exact personal preference cannot be found - my answer is to say, take it or leave it - but not clear what yours is?

DamnDeDoubtanceIsSpartacus

It is not for "men" to sort out the behaviour of other individuals. However, as long as you are happy to accept the responsibility of any other women on the planet (including my behaviour) then carry on with this stupid argument. I don't like the policies of Theresa May, but while ever she represents 100% of current prime ministers I will accept her as representing my entire sex, and you are equally responsible too for all her policies because of your sex.

The most stupid load of tosh ever - people are people - their reproductive organs make no difference. The human condition is the ability for thought to go beyond animal urges based on biology.

April229 healthcare is not free in this country. Taxpayers fund it. We have nothing to be grateful about - it's a pre-paid service.

I once felt uncomfortable stripped to the waste and having an ecg by an obviously gay male nurse when I was younger. I have large breasts and he looked a bit boak touching them if you see what I mean. He left me uncovered for ages and I would have prepared a female or tbh a straight man as I felt a contemptuous vibe. I suppose it comes down to who you feel comfortable with. It was a private procedure but I wasn't asked if I minded a man. It was assumed..... I was left feeling humiliated. I then had a breast exam with a female doctor but they don't seem to understand that for women ecg's are intimate.

The trans ideology is seriously taking hold and is destroying women's rights.

I had a male midwife for my post natal care and found it very uncomfortable. I had passed a couple of massive clots and was told to show them to the midwife so they could assess it I also had a male student midwife sitting in on some very sensitive check ups, which I did not like at all.

I believe men should not work as midwives and find it dubious as to why a man would be interested in the field. I also prefer a female gyno to a male.

I had a male GP doing an extensive chest examination when I was 16, no idea what for, and whilst doing it he complimented me on my "fit" figure. bleurgh.

I am sick of men who want to be women encroaching on our female only spaces. Fuck off.

April229
Google 'autogynephilia' and then tell us that you'd be happy with someone who has a sexual fetish about being a woman conducting your smear.
I din't know how women are meant to distinguish between those with a sexual fetish and those who have gender dysphoria but given the lengths to which perverted men will go to to access women, I'd prefer that we take no chances.