To think that women should be able to request a female doctor or nurse?

[Betti935]

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/the-female-nhs-nurse-i-asked-for-came-with-stubble-83rq9p0gg

Summary: A woman requested a female nurse to carry out her cervical smear test. When she arrived the nurse was clearly male (stubble, deep voice etc). When she questioned this, the nurse insisted that they were a woman because they were trans. The patient says she was made to feel like a bigot and in the end decided not to go ahead with the smear test.

Now in this case, the NHS Trust has apologised and said that the nurse did not handle the situation appropriately. However the government are planning to introduce into law the recommendations of the Women and Equalities Committee which include, not only allowing men to 'self-identify' as women without any medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, but also to get rid of the exemptions currently in place.

Currently, while biological males can legally 'become' women (following a diagnosis of gender dysphoria - there is already no requirement to have any hormone treatment or surgery), there are some limited exemptions in law:

“If a service provider provides single or separate sex services for women and men, or provides services differently to women and men, they should treat transsexual people according to the gender role in which they present. However, the Act does permit the service provider to provide a different service or exclude a person from the service, who is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or who has undergone, gender reassignment. This will only be lawful where the exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.” For example, it is currently legal for a group counselling session for female rape victims to exclude biological males if female clients would be not feel able to attend and participate in the group if they were present.

If this new legislation is passed and there are no exemptions allowing for transwomen (biological males) to be treated differently from biological women, there will be no way to protect vulnerable women who don't feel able to access rape services or medical services if they can't be sure of a female-only service.

This won't be like other rights conflicts (e.g. on sexual orientation versus religion) where test cases go to court and judgements are made because women won't exist as a separate protected group from transwomen.

"In my life I have also found that the individuals who have protected me the most are also men"

Protected you from what, Blink?

I want to have my menstrual disorders discussed and treated by a woman because she has experienced periods.

A transwoman or a man hasn't

Exactly. I only want a smear test from a person who has the same anatomy as me and has had a smear test herself. Not a trans woman.

I have an elderly relative with prostate problems. His GPs' practice comprises a male and female GP. He's happy to see either for anything except his prostate issues - then he wants to see the male doctor.

It's not as if anyone is saying "men can't practise medicine" or "transwomen can't practise medicine". There is no discrimination that matters here - men can take blood samples from women/inspect their tonsils/ take their temperature/ look down their ears... It's simply that when it comes to inspections of one's sexual areas, the patient should get the final say as to who they are happy and comfortable with. There's lots of bits of nursing other than taking smear tests - why would a transwoman nurse want to do these especially, just to make a political point? I'd be highly suspicious of anyone who didn't immediately respond "I'm sorry, I can see you're not comfortable, I'll get an alternative practitioner (if available)/book a new appointment ASAP with an alternative practitioner."

I say that as someone who personally doesn't care much one way or the other - but an individual's ability to choose who sees/touches their genitals should be absolutely non-negotiable.

Isa
I think you are totally right as long as you have a penis your feelings are more important than anyone who doesn't have a penis including transwomen who have actually undergone transitional surgery.

At least blinks stance makes sense, even if it is a tad heartless.

At least blink isn't one of the many people who come here saying they want to keep sex segregation but include tim/tif in the category they wish to belong to.

Contessa

I was discussing this thread with DH and he really doesn't get it - keeps using words like 'sexual apartheid' to describe women's wish for single sex spaces. He also keeps saying that if you substitute the word 'black' for trans, then we'd realise how bigoted we're being

So what if he thinks it's "bigoted?" 85,000 women raped each year in the UK. Women and girls walking down the street, on public transport, going to school, going to work, going to the doctor's, minding their own business just getting on with life subjected to catcalls, insults, groping and deliberate intimidation by men all the bloody time.

Once he has gone and lived that experience, then he can understand it from the other point of view and can be taken seriously if he still thinks girls and women who need some peace of mind in single-sex spaces - whilst in a state of undress, exposure and vulnerability - are being bigoted.

And when he pipes up with "not all men", sure, of course it's really not all men and - thankfully - it's not all women, but it's enough women to justify the need for single sex spaces in certain circumstances. And when he pipes up with "yeah but what about black and white and bigots blah, blah" this is completely irrelevant. This has nothing to do with treating a group of society with hatred and intolerance and everything to do with ensuring that the most harassed and assaulted section of society are afforded adequate security to be able to participate in healthy activities, purchase clothes and have vital sexual health treatment with fear, no matter what the colour of their skin is.

If he is so concerned about people with penises being excluded from women's safe spaces, he needs to be doing an awful lot more campaigning to stop people with penises harassing and assaulting women and not just whingeing about women being "bigoted".

I told my Mum about this the other day and she looked at me and said don't be so stupid.

She added "a man with a penis cannot be a woman, a transwoman has had a sex change and has had surgery to become a woman, you are confused PCL"

Only I am not confused.

So my request for a female doctor/nurse or any other HCP could potentially be ignored if a member of that team is male but identifies as female

Well if that isn’t a step back for female rights I don’t know what is

Unless someone can explain to me how this isn’t a step back for women

Protected my mental wellbeing when I’ve gone through difficult times. Closest man in my life provided the reassurance and help to get life back on track, far more than any women I knew. Isn’t that the point?

Blink are you a man?

I want to know because I think that you are and you are trying to derail this thread on purpose.

Isn’t that the point?

Not really.

The closest person I have in my life, who I would trust with everything is male.

I want a female GP when relevant to me.

Seriously, we expect rightly for girls to not have their horizon’s limited by other members of societies bias - but yet some women can’t see past their own bias.

Snort. It's not bias that 98% of sexually crime is committed by men.

It's not bias that sexual harassment is endemic, and only goes one way.

It's not bias many of the women on here have already been assaulted by male healthcare professionals in a position of power.

It's not bias that many men go out of their way to be in a position to assault children/women.

It's not bias that autogynephilia is a motivation for transitioning.

None of this is bias, you silly thing.

Woman wouldn't give a toss what kind of health care professional she had if none of the above existed.

It's men who have made women on here feel uncomfortable. Whether it's because they have been raped, suffered sexual assault, letching, or for patriarchal religious reasons.

And you're using some kind of alternative universe logic to decide their conclusions are wrong because they're biased!

If you are actually living in the real world, and not some world in your head, try directing your attention towards the people who make women feel like this, rather than blaming the women for it.

Deciding a man touching your genitals is the same as hiring him to represent you in court isn't even worth addressing.

I am advocating getting rid of the exception. As per the title
Why? This would achieve nothing, in fact it would have harmful long term consequences, in terms of up take of cervical smear screenings and subsequent cases of untreatable cervical cancer. Hardly one of the aims of the NHS.
The present law works pretty well in a clinical setting, even allowing for staff shortages, and virtually no HCP's have any problem with it or take it personally. Again, if they do, then they should really rethink their career choices.

The DM now has an article about this specific case too -
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5224421/NHS-apologises-woman-allocated-transsexual-nurse.html

"Protected my mental wellbeing when I’ve gone through difficult times. Closest man in my life provided the reassurance and help to get life back on track, far more than any women I knew. Isn’t that the point?"

So you've never been sexually or physically assaulted by a man then, Blink? Never been intimidated or threatened by a man? Never felt unsafe with a man?

Lucky you. Seriously.

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed

As of now, yes I do believe this is a step backwards - as you have the current right to choose a women. A woman is an adult female, no man can ever become this. This change gives women nothing in return.

However, to advance the equality of women, the right to choose based on sex needs to be fully abolished. At this point, the trans status is irrelevant as both male and female should be acceptable.

Allowing people to choose professionals based on sex reduces opportunities for women, and the day when no rules or laws ever refer to men or women the better!

Protected my mental wellbeing when I’ve gone through difficult times. Closest man in my life provided the reassurance and help to get life back on track, far more than any women I knew. Isn’t that the point?

While I agree with Persian that you are almost certainly a man (see, for example, your attempt at claiming the position of chairperson of the thread with your patronising 'see, I think you're making an honest appraisal there' or whatever the words to ItalianGreyhound were... utterly typical of a certain type of poster), I will ignore that for this particular question:

The point of what, exactly? Are you suggesting that you are in a monogamous relationship with a man, and that he supported you more than women did at a difficult time? Do you not rather suspect that had more to do with you being in a monogamous relationship with him than the fact he was male? ...

And back to reality: utterly typical of a certain type of male poster on these threads to attempt to strawman the argument into 'you must hate all men and think each individual man is bad if you try to claim that men as a class are responsible for the oppression of and violence against women'.

I suggest such posters don't get the opportunity to waste everyone's time more than they already have.

Allowing people to choose professionals based on sex reduces opportunities for women, and the day when no rules or laws ever refer to men or women the better!

We are not discussing opportunities for professionals we are discussing the rights for people to choose what sex the professional is when having an intimate medical examination

For many women not allowing this choice would stop them seeking medical treatment as for men to on religious grounds

Allowing people to choose professionals based on sex reduces opportunities for women

Incidentally, given that women are likely to vastly outnumber men as both nurses and doctors for a good while to come, removing the exception in this context would essentially only prevent male patients from getting a male HCP on request. It's likely to be far easier to get a woman for a woman who requests one. What a dreadful man-hater Blink66 is!

However, to advance the equality of women the right to choose based on sex needs to be abolished
Well, if be 'equality of women' means being forced to accept intimate internal examinations from men or die of cancer, well, sure Jan.
You have a really strange idea of equality, I must say.

@Blink66 we are not talking about race, coloir or religion, and I don't buy into 'gender' - we are talking biological sex. 'Female' as per the thread title.

For the record I don't avoid men, I'm married to one, my son is one 'in the growing' and I'm currently away with family, 4 makes and 4 females. I don't expect to be served by females in a shop, or to only talk to female teachers at the school.

But I do reserve the right to pee, get changed, and be medically seem for intimate procedures by other females if I choose. The law extends me that right, and to all females and males.

If at any time a person makes me feel uncomfortable I voluntarily withdraw from their presence.

Except where I cannot.

The only people who have physically restrained me against my will (in a very minor way), who have touched my bottom without consent or tried to kiss me against my will, are males. I don't hate all males but I am wary, especially in compromising situations and I've had only a fraction of the bad treatment by males that many women have!

Biology is a very specific kind of characteristic.

Be honest here, are you a parent, do you have a daughter? I do. A teenager. This year I topk her for a bra fitting. The fitter was a woman. If the bra fitter had been a man would you expect me to have allowed him access to my partially undressed teenage daughter?

In my shoes if the fitter had been a male, what would you have told your daughter?

Come on then @Blink66 are you a man or a woman??

This debate is particularly ironic in the post-Weinstein, #MeToo context.

Lefty-liberal men after Weinstein: 'OMG, that's terrible, no woman should put up with that, women need to speak out!'

Lefty-liberal men when women assert a boundary: 'OMG, that's so transphobic. Not All Men Are Like That, equality means there's no need for segregated spaces, you bigot'.

.Allowing people to choose professionals based on sex reduces opportunities for women, and the day when no rules or laws ever refer to men or women the better!

You are utterly ignoring the power dynamic between men and women.

More men than women are in a greater position of power. Laws have been implemented, after decades of women campaigning, to address this.

It's illegal for men to sexually assault women. But they still do it. It's illegal to have a gender pay gap, but there still is one.

You seem to be under the impression that men and women are exactly the same. That there is no biological difference and no power hierarchy.

Feminists fight to redress the power imbalance between men and women. Having sex based protections address this imbalance.

If women could wave a magic wand and remove the hierarchy there would be no need for sex based protection. As they can't, they still need the protections to be in place.

Direct your energy to the need for these protections, rather than dismantling the protections whilst doing nothing about the need for them.