To think that women should be able to request a female doctor or nurse?

[Betti935]

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/the-female-nhs-nurse-i-asked-for-came-with-stubble-83rq9p0gg

Summary: A woman requested a female nurse to carry out her cervical smear test. When she arrived the nurse was clearly male (stubble, deep voice etc). When she questioned this, the nurse insisted that they were a woman because they were trans. The patient says she was made to feel like a bigot and in the end decided not to go ahead with the smear test.

Now in this case, the NHS Trust has apologised and said that the nurse did not handle the situation appropriately. However the government are planning to introduce into law the recommendations of the Women and Equalities Committee which include, not only allowing men to 'self-identify' as women without any medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, but also to get rid of the exemptions currently in place.

Currently, while biological males can legally 'become' women (following a diagnosis of gender dysphoria - there is already no requirement to have any hormone treatment or surgery), there are some limited exemptions in law:

“If a service provider provides single or separate sex services for women and men, or provides services differently to women and men, they should treat transsexual people according to the gender role in which they present. However, the Act does permit the service provider to provide a different service or exclude a person from the service, who is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or who has undergone, gender reassignment. This will only be lawful where the exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.” For example, it is currently legal for a group counselling session for female rape victims to exclude biological males if female clients would be not feel able to attend and participate in the group if they were present.

If this new legislation is passed and there are no exemptions allowing for transwomen (biological males) to be treated differently from biological women, there will be no way to protect vulnerable women who don't feel able to access rape services or medical services if they can't be sure of a female-only service.

This won't be like other rights conflicts (e.g. on sexual orientation versus religion) where test cases go to court and judgements are made because women won't exist as a separate protected group from transwomen.

All this faux-intellectual debate gets on my nerves. There is no logic, no definitions. Its just nonsense

The crux here is that feminist will not accept that there is a way of being psychologically female. Surely it is a central tenet of feminist thought that women can be women in any way that they want despite their female biology.

Gender roles are a social construct that women no longer have perform to be considered women. There is no one way to be a woman. What is dangerous about the current trans narrative is the insistence that there is one way to be a woman and that is inextricably linked to biology. Ergo: having a female brain makes you a woman and therefore entitles you to tell other women how to be a woman.

But this requires us to ignore the impact of other parts of our biology on our daily lives. It am so angry at the concept of #cisprivilege. As if all of the constraints of female biology that women deal with and have fought to overcome are privileges rather than the very things that have been holding us back from the beginning of time.

Rant over.

A smear is very different - if the HCP is female, it is likely only to be the two of you in the room. It feels much more vulnerable and invasive.

I totally agree. As I said upthread I didn't have the easiest births and felt like half the NHS had seen my fanny by the time I was done.

But the smear test is a different ball game - you walk in, it's really quiet and just the two of you. You go behind the curtains, awkwardly take off your jeans and knickers (you are not sure where to put them so you try and fold them neatly into your jeans and put them on the chair because you don't want the nurse to think you are a slattern!) Then you slide your naked arse onto the pleather, paper towel covered, table and lie back, wondering if you need to say 'I'm ready' out loud or if the nurse will just know (she just knows!) Then she comes round the curtain and for some weird reason puts a massive sheet of blue paper towel over your chuff for dignity, a completely pointless exercise given she is about to look right up it. Then she comes at you with a light, you hear the speculum being lubed up, then in it goes, freezing, and you hear and feel the vice screw thingy going as you are opened up.......... Argh!

It's definitely, for me at least, an experience where I have never really felt more vulnerable.

Why do you say that seriously!

The crux here is that feminist will not accept that there is a way of being psychologically female. Surely it is a central tenet of feminist thought that women can be women in any way that they wantdespitetheir female biology
This.
A woman is biologically female.
She can be as girly as she likes, as tomboyish as she likes, as butch as she likes. She can do any hobby. She can choose to follow traditional gender roles and be a SAHM or she could choose to be the breadwinner. She can choose to marry or not. Choose to change her last name or not.
None of those choices matter because being a woman doesn't mean you must be feminine and love makeup.

Same for men. They can be as sporty, nerdy, emotionally detached, camp, effeminate, dress in 3 piece suit every day or a dress. They are men.

Someone doesn't become a woman by deciding I like dresses and eyeliner (like that riley idiot on youtube). He is a man who enjoys womens clothes and that is absolutely fine. Riley can eveb call himself a woman if that's what he wants. And i will run with it as long as riley doesn't do wjat riley currently does which is say lesbians are transphobic for not wanting a dicl inside them.

'Psychologically female' is very interesting.

Given that the brains of males and females are a mosaic and rarely on the extreme end.

What are psychologically female traits?

People always talk about transwomen having an inner essence, an identity, a sense of whether they are men or women. Which might sound plausible, until you actually describe it.

What are these traits that can determine whether you feel female?

Empathy? Kindness? Consideration? Accommodation of others?

What's jumping out at me is what is being said to women on this very thread.

Women here, who would no doubt consider themselves normal and fairly representative, are telling other women that their rape induced PTSD should be set aside to accommodate a man.

That a woman's privilege means she should stop whining in order to accommodate a man's greater privilege.

That discrimination can be used to meet one poster's criteria of a preferred healthcare professional, but not another woman's based on her own criteria, should that criteria offend a man.

If just this thread is anything to go by, woman are being relentlessly conditioned into what one might consider typically 'female' traits.

And this would have been going on since birth.

Moreover, it is other women who are saying it. Not men, not
predators. Not those with a vested interest in perpetuating the idea that women should roll over.

And the breathtaking irony is that it is transwomen who are meant to have these traits, this inner essence, this affinity with females.

I'm on page 3 of this thread and I can't copy & paste on my phone but I just want to say bravo @mathanxiety: just because we are women does not make us everyone's goddamn mother indeed.

Personally I wish I could be less accommodating of every other fuckers feelings. I would NOT liked to be examined by a man in a dress. I am probably just about confident to say that now. 20 years ago as an 18 year old I would have stayed silent and felt uncomfortable and distressed. As girls do

there are two types of transwomen. Homosexual transsexuals who transition due to gender dysphoria, and autogynephiles who transition due to a sexual motivation

When it comes to intimate medical procedures, isn't this the crux of the matter? There's no way of knowing which type of transwoman your HCP is, so what's the answer ... to submit to the procedure anyway, hoping that it isn't having too much effect on that penis they still possess?

No thank you

You cannot overlook the key reality of what it is to be born with the biological reality of being female and navigating social expectations and constructs from the vessel of the female body. I will never know what it is to be "psychologically a man" because I will never know what it is to exist in society with anything other than a female body. I might have a chance of experiencing what it is to be "psychologically trans" because I might develop dysphoria. But I will never be "psychologically a man" and a person with a male body will never be "psychologically a woman". Looking at your body and feeling and believing it is the wrong sex is not what it means to be "psychologically a woman" - it is what it is to be "psychologically trans".

Surely transgender people should be grateful to the NHS?

All that treatment and surgery for free. While they are serving a prison sentence, some of them.

Shouldn't they actually be so grateful that they stop short of crossing the boundaries of women? Just kick back and be content with what they now have?

Or is it only women who have to be grateful?

Looking at your body and feeling and believing it is the wrong sex is not what it means to be "psychologically a woman" - it is what it is to be "psychologically trans".

Excellent point.

Posters on FWR have been warning about this very thing happening and have been told they're hysterical.

You should ask for a chaperone in this case. I’ve had internals by make gynaes but with a female nurse present. Am fine with that.

You should ask for a chaperone in this case. I’ve had internals by make gynaes but with a female nurse present. Am fine with that

But other people may not be so and that is their absolute right

You should ask for a chaperone in this case.

Do you get to specify the sex of a chaperone?

What if the chaperone is also a man?

transwomen are women doesn't sit right. Why can't transwomen be transwomen? Why the need to be viewed as biologically female, instead of trans? This is an honest, non goady question with absolutely no intention of offending.

What is wrong with being seen and accepted by society as a transwoman? Who, because of a blend of biology and personality/ emotions/ whatever, lives daily life as as transgendered person ? Wouldn't that work much better than insisting you are in fact female?

That is the bit I don't understand.

I'm not being articulate enough as I'm on my phone while breastfeeding, but if someone has answer I'd be interested.

Pretty amazing that women are expected to stop whining, sign registers demonstrating psychological distress or request chaperones for intimate procedures if they desire a same sex / female HCP all to protect men's feels.

Exactly.

You say you want a female HCP, they say there are none available will a male do?

You grit your teeth and say okay, as long as I can have a chaperone. And in walks another man.

A chaperone should always be a biological female, if a woman, that's the whole point of a chaperone!

I am amazed that The Times is referring to the nurse as "he", obviously they can see through the nonsense and not call a man "she" just because they say they are female.

welshgirlwannabe

What is wrong with being seen and accepted by society as a transwoman?

There are indeed many transwomen who are perfectly content with their status as trans, not women. They will agree they are men and just feel more comfortable presenting as women.

But some men transition for a sexual motivation. And it is imperative, to the fetish, that they are able to be consistently validated as female.

See autogynephilia for an explanation.

This link provides the reasons for why people transition.

4thwavenow.com/?s=Gender+dysphoria&submit=Search

Morphene ... being told you are not acceptable purely because of your sex, gender or trans status (or race/disability) IS discrimination.

Just to be clear - not wanting a transwoman to do a procedure when you've asked for a female HCP isn't discriminating based on trans status. It's biological sex that is the problem - they are being treated like any other male HCP in that scenario. I wish people would understand this.

Why is my choice not to have someone with a penis carry out my smear test less important than their right to say that they are female when they have a penis??

A chaperone should always be a biological female, if a woman, that's the whole point of a chaperone!

Well you'd think. But the whole point of the article is that a woman was specified. And that it no longer means adult human female. But can mean adult human male, as well.