To think that women should be able to request a female doctor or nurse?

[Betti935]

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/the-female-nhs-nurse-i-asked-for-came-with-stubble-83rq9p0gg

Summary: A woman requested a female nurse to carry out her cervical smear test. When she arrived the nurse was clearly male (stubble, deep voice etc). When she questioned this, the nurse insisted that they were a woman because they were trans. The patient says she was made to feel like a bigot and in the end decided not to go ahead with the smear test.

Now in this case, the NHS Trust has apologised and said that the nurse did not handle the situation appropriately. However the government are planning to introduce into law the recommendations of the Women and Equalities Committee which include, not only allowing men to 'self-identify' as women without any medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, but also to get rid of the exemptions currently in place.

Currently, while biological males can legally 'become' women (following a diagnosis of gender dysphoria - there is already no requirement to have any hormone treatment or surgery), there are some limited exemptions in law:

“If a service provider provides single or separate sex services for women and men, or provides services differently to women and men, they should treat transsexual people according to the gender role in which they present. However, the Act does permit the service provider to provide a different service or exclude a person from the service, who is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or who has undergone, gender reassignment. This will only be lawful where the exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.” For example, it is currently legal for a group counselling session for female rape victims to exclude biological males if female clients would be not feel able to attend and participate in the group if they were present.

If this new legislation is passed and there are no exemptions allowing for transwomen (biological males) to be treated differently from biological women, there will be no way to protect vulnerable women who don't feel able to access rape services or medical services if they can't be sure of a female-only service.

This won't be like other rights conflicts (e.g. on sexual orientation versus religion) where test cases go to court and judgements are made because women won't exist as a separate protected group from transwomen.

I think there are plenty of the younger breed of transactivist and particularly "non binary" activists who are not autogynephiles but just narcissists who like having power over others though. And women are easy to control.

being told you are not acceptable purely because of your sex, gender or trans status (or race/disability) IS discrimination.

And it's this attitude that erases sexual orientation. You cannot choose a sexual partner based on their sex. Just their gender.

I think there are plenty of the younger breed of transactivist and particularly "non binary" activists who are not autogynephiles but just narcissists who like having power over others though. And women are easy to control.

I'm not disagreeing because there are any number of misogynistic tossers jumping on this bandwagon.

But given identity is a subjective, unverifiable state, no-one can ever know.

there are two types of transwomen. Homosexual transsexuals who transition due to gender dysphoria, and autogynephiles who transition due to a sexual motivation

If I could just revisit this point for a moment, please does anyone know if data exists to suggest what the split actually is in terms of percentages?

If I could just revisit this point for a moment, please does anyone know if data exists to suggest what the split actually is in terms of percentages

Personally I call this over simplistic.

I think there are plenty of the younger breed of transactivist and particularly "non binary" activists who are not autogynephiles but just narcissists who like having power over others though. And women are easy to control

Yes, I've met a lot of these.

Surely it's about quality of care. I've dealt with so many rude, heavy handed nurses over the years, including some who make the most inappropriate comments whilst taking a smear It's mind boggling.

On is told regularly that nurses are the smear taking experts yet it is nurses who have made me bleed, hurt like he'll and complained, yes complained about the position of my cervix as though it were my fault. Doctor's, usually female GPs or name or female Gynae Don't have any of these difficulties. I have a slightly tilted uterus and my cervix is hidden away behind it, it isn't unusual but nurse training/intellect doesn't seem to have prepared the average nurse to deal with it.

The female GPs at my surgery are aware. Have a little look, use the right sized speculum and are very gentle.

I simply would not allow any nurse to take a smear nowadays. When I was at a practice where there was no choice I paid a gynaecologist to do it.

Where are all these kind, gentle super competent female nurses please? I haven't come across many.

Why the need to be viewed as biologically female, instead of trans? This is an honest, non goady question with absolutely no intention of offending

I don't think they are, are they? I think they are supposed to be viewed as psychologically members of a sex which differs from their biology.

There is no denying your biology. Even with all the surgery and hormone treatment modern science can offer, there is no denying what nature has given you no matter how much you alter its external expression. But "psychology" is being treated as something more nebulous - which of course on many levels it is - but it is something that arises from that inextricable combination of nature and nurture. It is impossible even for the youngest of children to transition and be "psychologically" a member of another sex. Even if the child could "pass" as a member of another sex for the entirety of their living memory, to the point they even begin not to notice most of the time, that is not the psychological reality of girls, women, boys and men. It is the reality of being trans. Accepting the reality of transgender people is a good thing for society. Pretending that reality is something other than what it is, is not.

In my doctors surgery, the nurse taking the smear was excellent, she was quite, not hurting, and lasted a few minutes. Yes there are some bad nurses who like you describe, are heavy handed, and abrupt.

I totally accept that my question may have been a bit simplistic, spartacus, and I appreciate that the whole issue is bigger than this

I suppose, though, I was just trying to work out what the likelihood is of encountering someone with a fetish rather than gender dysphoria ...

But what is

"to be viewed as psychologically members of a sex which differs from their biology. "

What is being psychologically a woman?

I really have no clue what that even means!

Woman = adult human female which is a biological definition and has nothing to do with how you feel or how you think.

Surely it's about quality of care.

It's about patient consent and the right to request a female HCP. That may not be an important factor for you but it is for many many women.

Puzzledandpissedoff

If I could just revisit this point for a moment, please does anyone know if data exists to suggest what the split actually is in terms of percentages?

As far as I know there is no official data.

The profile of an autogynephile will be that they are (generally) older, attracted to women, not effeminate.

They are usually the ones who claim to be lesbians and demand actual lesbians consider them as partners.

Percentages as high as 60%+ have been suggested. I don't know how you can actually tell unless you are basing it on the percentage of gay/straight people generally.

There has been a significant increase in men identifying as women though. As Miranda Yardley says 'where have all the cross dressers gone?'

I also agree with YetAnotherSpartacus that there now seems to be a new wave of 'transwomen', who are neither gender dysphoric nor AGP.

Since the need to present as female has been abandoned, anyone can claim their are trans solely for the purpose of targetting women.

I am amazed that The Times is referring to the nurse as "he", obviously they can see through the nonsense and not call a man "she" just because they say they are female.

The journalists at The Times, more than any other paper, get it.

Janice Turner didn't write this article but she was at Speakers Corner when Maria MacLachlan was attacked. She was in the room when the talk went ahead & the TAs outside were chanting "Burn it down!"

Woman = adult human female which is a biological definition and has nothing to do with how you feel or how you think

Your definition as an adult human female will have an affect on how you think and feel, though. Your psychology is not something that just floats around separately from your adult human female being. I think it is a mistake to try to somehow separate your psychology from your biology. As Nanny Knickers said, you cannot ignore the impact of biology on daily lives - this necessarily includes your psychology, how you think and feel.

And, of course, that is very much not to say that the impact of biology on daily lives and psychology is "exactly like x" for all women and "exactly like y" for all men.

Apologies, I should probably have qualified what I meant a few pages back.

By psychologically a woman, I meant relating to thoughts and feelings. I imagine brain make up and chemistry would still sit in the realms of biology but I'm not an expert and more than happy to be corrected. The point I was trying to make is that you can feel like a woman and identify as a woman but that still doesn't change basic biology.

Spot on, Datun.

YABU - You should expect someone qualified to do the job, and have no choice in the characteristics of the person.

(I am not talking anything trans here, just that you shouldn’t be able to choose the sex of your medical professional - full stop.)

Seriously, we expect rightly for girls to not have their horizon’s limited by other members of societies bias - but yet some women can’t see past their own bias.

(Not the OP) Please also stop projecting the failings or attitudes of an individual onto the entire population of the same sex. If you were attacked by a person, you have the right not to be in contact with that person, you do not have the right to discriminate against people of the same sex as your attacker. That’s your issue to resolve; you certainly have a right to your opinion and generally refuse to take part - but you don’t have a right to discriminate just to take part.

Religion is just a shared belief - it adds nothing to the argument, if religion is discriminatory, then those beliefs are wrong and all those who follow them should be called out just the same.

Thanks, Datun ... I confess I'm not really surprised to learn that official data apparently doesn't exist, but your reply's helping me to become better informed around the subject

And within such things as healthcare, it's precisely the fact that "anyone can claim their are trans solely for the purpose of targetting women" which worries me. FWIW I'm another who has no problem with male HCPs or even those genuinely committed to the difficult process of full transitioning and all the interventions/surgery involved. What I do have an issue with is the concept of being targeted when in a vulnerable position by someone whose motives are less than might be expected in their role

Please also stop projecting the failings or attitudes of an individual onto the entire population of the same sex. If you were attacked by a person, you have the right not to be in contact with that person, you do not have the right to discriminate against people of the same sex as your attacker. That’s your issue to resolve; you certainly have a right to your opinion and generally refuse to take part - but you don’t have a right to discriminate just to take part

Is the idiocy catching today?

@mathanxiety

Excellent post....

"Women have the right to reject this role that men have assigned to us. We are not some blank screen onto which anyone can project whatever they wish about themselves or about us. We are not put on earth to sort out everyone's problems for them.

Just because we are women doesn't mean we are everyone's goddamn mother. That is the prison of gender roles and gendered expectations that women have tried to break free from since the dawn of organised women's movements.

If rejecting this role entails rejecting the men dressed as women who try to perform 'femininity' from unwanted involvement in their healthcare or inclusion in their spaces, that is well and good."

@Skarossinkplunger

"I actually don’t agree with the right to chose the sex of your healthcare professional. I think the practice is discriminatory"

And I think it is discriminatory against the patient (who should surely be at the centre of the procedure) to not allow this kind of choice!

Whatever you feel have experienced you don't get to decide on behalf I'd other women. If women's view were taken equally women would always have a choice in general medical situations, all but extreme circumstances.

Blink66
Fortunately the NHS doesn't agree with you and the right to choose to have intimate procedures carried out by someone of the same sex is enshrined - for both men and women. That's why the Trust apologised in this case.
Sounds a bit as if #metoo has passed you by

This

A lot of good comments under the Times article!