To think that women should be able to request a female doctor or nurse?

[Betti935]

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/the-female-nhs-nurse-i-asked-for-came-with-stubble-83rq9p0gg

Summary: A woman requested a female nurse to carry out her cervical smear test. When she arrived the nurse was clearly male (stubble, deep voice etc). When she questioned this, the nurse insisted that they were a woman because they were trans. The patient says she was made to feel like a bigot and in the end decided not to go ahead with the smear test.

Now in this case, the NHS Trust has apologised and said that the nurse did not handle the situation appropriately. However the government are planning to introduce into law the recommendations of the Women and Equalities Committee which include, not only allowing men to 'self-identify' as women without any medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, but also to get rid of the exemptions currently in place.

Currently, while biological males can legally 'become' women (following a diagnosis of gender dysphoria - there is already no requirement to have any hormone treatment or surgery), there are some limited exemptions in law:

“If a service provider provides single or separate sex services for women and men, or provides services differently to women and men, they should treat transsexual people according to the gender role in which they present. However, the Act does permit the service provider to provide a different service or exclude a person from the service, who is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or who has undergone, gender reassignment. This will only be lawful where the exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.” For example, it is currently legal for a group counselling session for female rape victims to exclude biological males if female clients would be not feel able to attend and participate in the group if they were present.

If this new legislation is passed and there are no exemptions allowing for transwomen (biological males) to be treated differently from biological women, there will be no way to protect vulnerable women who don't feel able to access rape services or medical services if they can't be sure of a female-only service.

This won't be like other rights conflicts (e.g. on sexual orientation versus religion) where test cases go to court and judgements are made because women won't exist as a separate protected group from transwomen.

As a woman I'm not here to validate other peoples thoughts and actions. Trans women should understand that.

I decide my boundaries, no one else. I decide who touched me, be that when giving a massage or putting something into my vulva. Because it's my body and quite frankly I don't give a fuck if my boundaries upset someone else. I dont have to justify myself just in case someone feels a bit sad inside because I won't validate their feelings.

Personally I don't mind what sex my medical practitioner is. But other women have different boundaries so they get to decide who touched them.

I am so angry that once again we are having to justify ourselves again because we can't hurt the feelings of a couple of TIMs.

If they had empathy for women, being a woman and all, they would understand.

I think it's really telling that when these questions come up they rarely do. They put their own or other trans people's feelings first, much of the time. Because it's down to women to look after them and validate their identity feelings.

It should be down to the patients preference. If they want a male, they get a male, and if they want a female, they get a female.

I personally couldn't care, as long as they knew what they were doing. But my best friend would have a heart attack going to a male doctor about anything female related, never mind actually having anything done!

Which just got me thinking- as an example- my dad has had numerous problems over the years, which has resulted in the community nurses coming out to do dressings etc. Do we always know, or do we assume, that some of these male patients are comfortable with a female nurse (especially if it's perhaps dressing bed sores on the buttocks etc), are they ever asked 'would you be more comfortable with a male nurse?' (For the record I only know of one male that works in this capacity, and that's a friend, no one at my surgery- all female).

I think the problem is once you start looking at this, where does it think stop? I have the example of the community nurses, but what if the only consultant to see is a member of the opposite sex?, or the only midwife available for you is a male? Etc

But going from my experience, I have always been asked if I was ok with a male nurse, doctor, consultant whenever I have had anything done or been investigated, and also asked would I like to have a 'chaperone' in with me. I've never been put in the situation where it's been basically get on with it. I've always been given a choice.

Transwomen are women. I wish people would understand that.

Transwomen are transwomen. There are times when it's fine and lovely for them to be part of the social category of women, but unfortunately the agenda has crept from included as appropriate to an aggressive demand to be recognised as biologically female and for biologically female people to have no rights whatsoever to be apart from men.

I do understand that, it's not a point of view I've reached because I'm under informed or stupid. I have a serious problem with it, because it is a major infringement of women and girls' rights. Sadly because of this political aggression it's been made impossible to continue with the system that's worked for decades of transsexual women being socially included in most situations and being sensitive to knowing when biological women's spaces should be respected because it's a matter specific to female biology.

If you are uncomfortable with a transwomen doing your smear test you will still have a right to request someone else, you always have that choice.

Are you aware that the proposed GRA amendments would remove that choice from women? That is why people are exercised about this. If the status quo remains then yes, you have the right to request someone else. The political agenda currently being pushed would remove that choice . As in the situation quoted in the above link, many organisations are, in anticipation of these amendments which haven't even reached parliament yet, already acting as if they were in place.

rainbow transwomen are not women, using the definition of 'women' that i am familiar with; adults human female, xx chromosomes, vagina, uterus, ovaries,breasts etc

Please can you provide the definition of 'women' which includes transwomen?

Do you know though, it doesnt actually matter. Because, what women mean when they request a female HCP is someone with female anatomy and physiology. So, no other convoluted philosophical 'definition' is actial relevant. Maybe we will just have to get very specific

Morphene - However, men and transwomen both have the right not to be discriminated against in their work. Turning up to do a procedure and being told you are not acceptable purely because of your sex, gender or trans status (or race/disability) IS discrimination.

Therefore I would propose at system that allows people to register in advance if they are unable, for psychological reasons, to accept treatment from men/women/trans, or any other subsection of the population with a protected characteristic, that they wouldn't feel comfortable with treatment from and then managers can protect both patients and HCP from harm.

No.

There is an exception in the Equality act that allows for people to be excluded from certain employment roles on the grounds of a protected characteristic, where this is a genuine occupational requirement, without this being discrimination. This includes the right to exclude a trans person from a single sex role.

We don't need some bullshit new system where women have to register their psychological problems in order to get a same sex HCP. Getting a same sex HCP should not depend on having psychological reasons or the willingness to have details of this recorded on some register. We just need the provisions in the Equality Act to be properly understood and used by health care providers.

I remember going to see a GP with tonsillitis as a young woman (early 20s) and him making me take my top off (I was not wearing a bra) to listen to my heart. I knew it was very wrong but could do nothing at the time

@nooka I experienced the same thing in my mid 20s - going to a doctor at the local surgery about something similar and being asked to remove my top so he could listen to my heart. KNOWING it was unnecessary but just going with it while knowing it was wrong. I remember him being very sharp with me, for some reason. Afterwards I asked a few people about their experiences with him explaining he’d been so impatient with me, but all the people I’d asked had nothing but good to say about him so I dropped it. I’d forgotten about it till I read your post, and it awakened that memory. I so wish I could remember his name.

I totally, it is so depressing the way things are going, female spaces being eroded, females being made to feel as as they are uncomfortable with a biological man doing an intimate proceedure. I had a mammograms, and I had a female nurse who helped out my breasts in the right position, I was naked from top. I wod not like that to be done by a male professional be it trans or not, unless a biological female chaperone was in the room.
.
Last night I was reading that a female only stream used for female bathing in Hampstead, was to be open to transwoman, or those biological. men who 'identified' as female on that day. Is nothing sacred.

This is only the male community doing this, you doing find trans men or biological females barging their ways into men only soaces. I bet they would be given shirt shrift by the biological men.

Turning up to do a procedure and being told you are not acceptable purely because of your sex, gender or trans status (or race/disability) IS discrimination.

You're conflating gender identity choices with skin colour and disability. It's not the same. You're also insisting that the feelings of the man who has made those choices is more important than the feelings or needs of the woman who is vulnerable and needs to permit intimate contact. Also more important than their culture or their religion. Have you noticed that this is all about women? There are no slogans about 'trans men are men' and no transmen demanding the right to give personal care to men whether or not the men are comfortable with it? Why do you think that might be?

Therefore I would propose at system that allows people to register in advance if they are unable, for psychological reasons, to accept treatment from men/women/trans, or any other subsection of the population with a protected characteristic, that they wouldn't feel comfortable with treatment from and then managers can protect both patients and HCP from harm.

You could call it the bigot list. There are already politically lobby groups tracking, threatening and doxxing women (and transwomen too) who dare to say anything against self ID or have questions or concerns. They include death threats. A nice hackable list would be lovely. Not to mention it reinforces again 'here are people with silly, shameful views'. No, this is not silly. This is not shameful. This is not something women should be enabling.

@Rossigigi in my 20 year experience the majority of men are fine with a female care giver.

I’d suggest that this is down to the fact that very few men are sexually assaulted by women and most have the physical strength to fight back.

Saying that I have encounter men (3in 20 years) who were unhappy to have intimate care done by women, so we called around the hospital to find a male nurse.
To respect the patients choices-2 of the 3 attempted to sexually assault the Nurse, just saying.

And can someone please explain how are Transwomen Women????

It's up to me who I permit touch the most intimate parts of my body, nobody else. I would have been very uncomfortable if a man was manipulating my boobs in the right position for the mammogram especially without a biological female chaperone.

I'm not a survivor of rape or sexual assault but I'm still only comfortable with a woman doing my smear test or gynae exam. I think that should be respected.

Transwomen are NOT women. I am so sick of this bullshit. Biologically, transwomen are men. Psychologically they are women. Post-operatively the situation is somewhat different. However, if you have a penis you are a man. You may be a woman trapped inside a man's body but you are still biologically a man.

Transwomen have the right to identify themselves as women. I have the right to identify them as biologically male. I have as much right over my body as any transwoman does. If that means I don't want a man with his hands up my vagina, I am entitled to that. Why should transwomen rights trump women's rights FFS?

I don't know, I know I could not give my child to unsafe contact, but then again I haven't been in front of a judge that makes you feel that small and reduces you to tears.

Biologically, transwomen are men. Psychologically they are women.

What does it mean to be psychologically a woman?

Sorry wrong thread

Transwomen have the right to identify themselves as women.
I have as much right over my body as any transwoman does. If that means I don't want a man with his hands up my vagina, I am entitled to that.
This

It's a bit like religion vs homosexuality. Someone is entitled to hold religious beliefs that homosexuality is a sin. That freedom of relgious belief does not mean they can go around committing homophobic attacks because 'i believe gays should go to hell'.

It's always about balancing competing rights and i draw a line when trans activists want to start a war against womens rights. They have the right to be trans. That rigjt dpes not override mine as a woman.

I was treated by a male obstetrician with DS2. I had a post partum haemorrhage post-CS and he had to undertake a number of intimate examinations. I had no problem with this - frankly, when things went sideways, it was life-saving treatment. There were also about a dozen HCP in the room (teaching hospital). I was in a bad way and exposed, but did not feel vulnerable. A smear is very different - if the HCP is female, it is likely only to be the two of you in the room. It feels much more vulnerable and invasive. It takes a skilled practitioner to put a woman at ease and to ensure the procedure is comfortable. Assuming a woman is agreeable to being examined by a TIM, I think there should be a chaperone in this situation - for the protection of both woman and practitioner.

Their right being trans, does not overide my rights to who touched my body.

What does it mean to be psychologically a woman?

No idea, but in the example I gave earlier, I think that psychologically, a woman who understands what it is to bleed from her womb and vagina would get - based on their own experience - that you can't just tell a woman who is a naked from the waist down after an internal exam, with blood down to her knees that she "get dressed now" and not offer them even some dry tissues or something to wipe themselves with and that it might be nice to pull the curtain and allow her to mop the blood up and re-dress as best she can in privacy even from her own husband. I think that psychologically women "get this" because of biological experience of what is to at the very least have periods, be in female changing rooms after PE/swimming/the gym etc. with people who have periods and who want a bit of privacy and dignity in those circumstances.

I agree bad, I would have no problems with that, it's lifesaving and the room is filled with other professionals. But an intimate examination, where there is just the two of you, feels more invasive.

The story is at the top of the front page in the paper version of the Sunday Times, & it's the second one listed in their top stories email. I think it's going to be hard to miss.

What IS 'Psychologically a woman'?

There really needs to be a definition of 'woman', if it is not the biological one

liminality - the major point you are missing is that after this new legislation comes into force, for the woman in question to say she'd like a different nurse because the one she got is a man will potentially be a hate crime or unlawful discrimination. Because the new law says that his person identifying themselves as female is enough to make it so.

Of course people should be able to request a female HCP.

Men should also be able to request a male HCP for intimate examinations etc.

It's not about sexuality for heaven's sake. A gay Dr is not a threat in most cases to the men they are treating.

And I'm certainly not worried about me or my dds being treated or examined by lesbians. They are women.

I think personally I would be ok if- said man walked in introduced himself checked with me that I was happy for him to examine me, and offered to bring in a chaperone etc. That male Dr could present how he wishes. Make up dress heels etc the only thing that would make me uncomfortable was if he refused to acknowledge was male or that he isn't what I was expecting. And that he didn't offer me the choice of getting someome else.

My dds I absolutely would request a female as she can choose who she is comfortable with when she is older.

Trans people should absolutely be able to work and be treated respectfully and not abused or harrassed.

But they would also need to acknowledge at times women and children may request to see a bio woman. If they can't accept that and think their validation overrides this then they have no business in the health industry.

If they are prepared to respect the right to choose and are understanding and do their jobs and have a good bedside manner etc then there's of course no problem with them being there.

No one should ever be forced to be treated by someone who makes them uncomfortable and I think health care is a perfectly acceptable boundary for people to have when it comes to how far they are willing to go to appease a man.

I have no idea why people always ask about lesbians. They are women there is no reason to feel uncomfortable around a lesbian because she is a lesbian.

Same way most if us can talk to another man in a professional capacity quite happily.