To wonder if I’m just old and possibly on the wrong side of history

[bambambini]

I do wonder if we are possibly seeing the start of a huge shift in society and how people are generally perceived. Many of our young seem to want the future to be different from what we've always had - man/woman, male/female - the binary i guess.

Maybe the future will be where everyone is non binary, where all divisions as we inderstand them are broken down. So you won’t be able to tell for sure what sex anyone is, what body parts they have etc.

I’m critical of the current identity politics debate but that doesn’t mean to say I’m right. Maybe I’m struggling with getting my head around it and accepting it because I’m much older and grew up in different times.

We’ve already seen a huge change in social norms with women getting the vote, the break down of racial segregation, legalisation of homosexuality etc. Maybe identity politics is the natural progression.

Silently, what are your thoughts about autogynephilia? Do you think that men with this fetish should be called women and allowed in women's spaces?

You keep giving random 'statistics' but no links.

You do realise that many teenagers (here in Ireland) have considered killing themselves - many do commit suicide regardless of trans issues. For many of them the way to get noticed and get help (in a country with really shitty mh support systems) is to announce they are trans?

You do realise that those kids who announce they are trans are encouraged online to announce they are intending to kill themselves, in order to get help more quickly?

You do realise that in the UK prisoners announcing they are going to kill themselves gets them moved to female prisons?

You do realise that the incidence of suicide in trans kids has been hugely exaggerated and there is actually no empirical evidence or controlled studies (if you can find it please post it) of suicidal ideation in trans teenagers. Just self-selection and questionnaire responses.

Using the "you have to let them self-medicate so they won't kill themselves" is a really shit argument when it comes to teenagers. We are adults, and shouldn't give in to such demands. We should be looking at long-term outcomes, not short term fixes

Puberty is crucial for brain development, why on earth would you prevent a human from developing naturally.

Suicide stats are appalling Silently how many trans people kill themselves, sorry if this is triggering.

I see that teen girl suicide is rising.

However, as I'm now saying for the third time, I would personally be in favour of delaying puberty until the child is more emotionally mature.

Puberty is a process of developing physical maturity AND emotional maturity so how would blocking it make a child more able to make an adult decision?

The second is fear of suicide - sadly many children/teens are depressed and suicidal. The first port of call shouldn't be chopping off bits of their bodies, rendering them infertile and setting them up for a life of not quite fitting in.

In the UK the transition process takes an average of five years, that's hardly chopping off anyone's bits as a first port of call, is it?

The biggest problem with the current 'trans rights' stuff is that it seems to be almost all about people raised, socialised and previously (if not currently) percieved as male demanding access to spaces designated as safe for women because these spaces exclude males. I have seen very, very little in the way of pressure on natal males to include and make room for trans men. Spaces designated for gay men aren't subject to a barrage of aggressive demands and threats that they open up to anyone who 'identifies as male' despite having tits and wearing lipstick, for example.
TBH I am fairly inclined to believe that 'trans activism' is being hijacked by non-trans men as a way of suppressing women's rights and making it impossible for women to have any male-free space anywhere - and that this is being gleefully jumped on by the rest of the white male rightwing manipulators as a way of enforcing the dominance of white males.

developing physical maturity AND emotional maturity so how would blocking it make a child more able to make an adult decision?

Most brain development isn't connected to the gonads, for example those with testosterone insensitivity syndrome mature emotionally and intellectually at similar rates to the wider population.

Puberty is essential for brain development, not something to be avoided or medicated.

Silently, you provide no source for your information. Good for you providing an actual statistic but no backup from where it comes from. Also, as Maryz is pointing out this is Ireland! There are clearly going to be other issues mixed in with that figure you provided (78%). Maryz provided the answers to that.

Yes to long-term outcomes, not short-term fixes. And are we really 100% sure chemically delaying puberty is going to be a fix? A boy that hasn't gone through puberty (if it is delayed chemically) will still have a penis - supposedly the thing he hates as it doesn't make him female - so what benefit overall is there from delaying puberty when you still have the sex organs of the sex you're born with? Psychological? Therapy could also therefore be an answer.

Yes, it will delay other aspects of puberty such as breasts forming but the removal of breasts in a future sex change is the least of it. I really don't see the benefit of delaying puberty chemically over therapy as the child will still have the same sex organs. Outward appearance can be managed if you think they should be managed into transitioning eventually but the body will stay the same anyway until surgery. It's a recipe for disaster.

You say you know people that would have benefited from delaying puberty but you will never know that for sure as they never experienced that so can't compare. "Fairly sure" just doesn't cut it.

Ok, serious medication (untested long term on children) as a first port of call.

Surgery has to wait a bit, but is still offered to teenagers. Top surgery for girls is now almost routine. Puberty blockers are being given to younger and younger children - if not legally prescribed, often bought online.

The system is fucked. These are kids

have to let them self-medicate so they won't kill themselves" is a really shit argument when it comes to teenagers. We are adults, and shouldn't give in to such demands. We should be looking at long-term outcomes, not short term fixes hmm

'We as adults' have no business at all medicating children at all, it's the job of medical professionals to do that, real doctors who've been to real medical school, as it is now. They should be left to make medical decisions without the input of those who've never been trained or met their patients.

Doctors decisions shouldn't be second guessed by public opinion.

I'm in favour of children getting appropriate medical treatment as determined by their physicians. I'm in favour of delaying puberty and I know that it's happening in many cases because it's the most appropriate treatment for some children.

Delaying puberty hasn't done Jazz Jennings much good

You can't change sex even with extensive medication and surgery. You can only change the outward appearance to better pass as the opposite sex.

*Yes this is correct actually. I am amazed that it is considered progressive to encourage people to mutilate themselves into a simulacrum of the opposite sex.

Surely we should be opening up gender boundaries rather than going down this narrow road of gender stereotyping.*

Yes - and why kids opting for non binary or gender non conforming makes more sense to me than trying to superficially change to mimicking the opposite sex, especially if it means serious medication, mutilating surgery and sterilising yourself in the quest of fooling yourself and tricking those around you.

In comparison - non binary, kids not wanting to be forced into narrow stereotypes - makes a lot more sense and is far less destructive.

I have to say I can see both sides to the argument but hope that all this debate does go a long way to breaking down gender stereotypes and allowing people to be free to be who they want to be.

I only want to pick up on one gender stereotype common in virtually every comment from both sides

Not all rape victims are female. There are a significant number of male rape victims in male prisons alongside convicted male on male rapists. Now I am an individual who vehemently hates our current prison system and has little if anything good to say about it but I will say that contrary to popular urban myth rapes in male prisons are actually rare. Far rarer than murders. If female rape victims deserve not to be housed with rapists then male victims do as well. Prisons should be able to monitor and manage the small number that would do this.

Male rape victims have to access male dressing rooms male only hospital wards etc.

Whilst i fully acknowledge rapist are male some women are sex offenders and currently in women's prisons and accessing the women only places you are using etc. This has to be monitored and managed now.

The world is a lot more complex than simple statements about certain groups.

A boy that hasn't gone through puberty (if it is delayed chemically) will still have a penis - supposedly the thing he hates as it doesn't make him female - so what benefit overall is there from delaying puberty when you still have the sex organs of the sex you're born with?

There are many changes at puberty that are more difficult to treat once they have happened, hair growth, voice breaking and some changes to the muscles in the face.

Psychological? Therapy could also therefore be an answer.

Both children and adults get extensive psychological treatment before they are even considered for more invasive procedures. Years of it.

Delaying puberty hasn't done Jazz Jennings much good

My dad's hip replacement didn't do him much good but they improve life for hundreds of thousands of people. Anecdotes doesn't make evidence, an individual at experiences can't be extrapolated.

Are you in favour of the current fashion of pushing puberty blockers ahead of counselling? Are you in favour of blocking all "anti trans" research? Are you in favour of the government supporting pro-transition companies like Mermaids?

Are you in favour of living in a time when genuine doctors raising questions are labelled as TERFs for suggesting a softly softly wait and see approach? Have you read about conversion therapy.

There isn't a simple answer to this. But I do know that telling a boy child that they can be a girl (or vice versa), and grow up to be a woman is wrong. It's impossible. They shouldn't be led to believe it is.

Silently, as with every profession mistakes get made. Doctors in countries with a health service are also instructed by their governments on the stance to take while they might not agree with said stance.

Caution is needed as once that penis is gone and there is possible future regret you've got a very mixed up and damaged person.

This site below says 20% regret surgery. That's very high and indicates treatment, including delaying puberty chemically, shouldn't be started in a lot of cases.

www.sexchangeregret.com/

www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth

It's doesn't matter what the absolute figure is. 20% is 20% and is 20% too many.

Silently says "Both children and adults get extensive psychological treatment before they are even considered for more invasive procedures. Years of it."

All the while reinforcing that they've been born into the same body while they've had years of being chemically mixed up from having their puberty delayed - very hard to back down and change your mind after that. Kids should not be deciding this and adults shouldn't be indulging it or encouraging it at an age when their minds aren't formed.

the current fashion of pushing puberty blockers ahead of counselling?

I know that doesn't happen in the UK or Ireland. If you're pushing for trans aversion therapy, I think that's abusive but the therapy people, are given now is fairly robust. Mistakes will be made, in any medical intervention mistakes are made but more good than harm is done.

Are you in favour of blocking all "anti trans" research?

I'm in favour of evidence based medicine and that NICE, who don't spend a penny they don't need to, have decided that treatment is the best options for those who present as trans.

Are you in favour of the government supporting pro-transition companies like Mermaids?

That's a support group for kids. I'm in favour of kids getting all of the emotional support they need. They aren't a company, they're a charity.

Those with testosterone insensitivity syndrome mature emotionally and intellectually at similar rates to the wider population.

Can you link to a study that demonstrates this please? I’ve googled but can’t find anything that proves or disproves your statement.

All the while reinforcing that they've been born into the same body while they've had years of being chemically mixed up from having their puberty delayed - very hard to back down and change your mind after that. Kids should not be deciding this and adults shouldn't be indulging it or encouraging it at an age when their minds aren't formed.

Are there any other medical treatments that you feel doctors and the rest of the medical community are getting wrong? Who exactly should be keeping an eye of these medical professionals with their diagnosis?

Anyone who has ever tried to get help or even a diagnosis for a child knows that it's an uphill battle, doctors under diagnosis far more than they over treat. They're massively cautious.

“"Proddy" =Protestant
"Tim" =Catholic
Scottish west coast sectarian morons use the terms as well. (Are you a Proddy or a Tim?) apparently- I have never heard them in real life.

I don't know the derivation of "Tim"“

Yes, used in the Glasgow area and an example of it’s usage is the charming football terrace ditty “I’d rather be a Paki than a Tim”

Though earlier today I actually saw someone tweet “i’d rather be a terf than a TIM” and reminded me of the aforementioned charming ditty.

This site below says 20% regret surgery. That's very high and indicates treatment, including delaying puberty chemically, shouldn't be started in a lot of cases

That suggests that 80% don't regret their surgery. If we were talking about a success rate of 80% for a cancer treatment, would you suggest that that treatment was discontinued?