To wonder if I’m just old and possibly on the wrong side of history

[bambambini]

I do wonder if we are possibly seeing the start of a huge shift in society and how people are generally perceived. Many of our young seem to want the future to be different from what we've always had - man/woman, male/female - the binary i guess.

Maybe the future will be where everyone is non binary, where all divisions as we inderstand them are broken down. So you won’t be able to tell for sure what sex anyone is, what body parts they have etc.

I’m critical of the current identity politics debate but that doesn’t mean to say I’m right. Maybe I’m struggling with getting my head around it and accepting it because I’m much older and grew up in different times.

We’ve already seen a huge change in social norms with women getting the vote, the break down of racial segregation, legalisation of homosexuality etc. Maybe identity politics is the natural progression.

I don't think gender is binary at all.

Funnily enough the trans movement seems to think it is [baffled]. So if you are a woman you have to wear high heels and makeup and make pouty faces in selfies and put kisses at the end of all your tweets.

And if you are a man you have to be all manly and gruff and ambitious and grow a beard and speak in a deep voice and wear Doc Martens and dark coloured clothing.

Also children who don't want to play with dolls must be boys, and children who want to wear fairy costumes must be girls.

The trans movement is the epitome of division by gender

I'm glad your experience was positive. My elderly mother's experience was not.
But I'm not talking from my own experience

I can't see anything in your link that says it is unanimous. The ward I was on definitely respected people's dignity.

Do you recognise that you were lucky granny? Do you recognise that women should have the right to refuse mixed wards if they want to (abuse victims, religious women etc)?

Given a choice, if they refuse mixed wards and are put on a female ward do you think they should expect to be with only women, not male-bodied people?

The point about refuges, prisons, sports etc is that cis males can now enter those spaces, simply by declaring themselves women - and we are already seeing it happen.
Former cis-male rapists or murderers are now trans-women, so get transferred to women's prisons. An athlete who had lived their whole life as a male quite happily until age started to affect their performance becomes a trans-woman, and is suddenly back to winning silver medals due to their natural advantages.
And hypothetically - a woman escapes a violent abusive relationship with a cis-male and accesses a safe space. Ex partner declares them self a trans-woman and can now gain access - why wouldnt they? What could stop them?

Men falsely declaring themselves to be trans to access women's space isn't a trans problem, it's a male entitlement/violence problem. A minority group should be asked to give up their hard won right because those not entitled to those rights may take advantage of them. We need to find other ways around the problem.

I think that a reasonable parallel is those who think that rape victims should be forced to give up their anonymity because a tiny minority of people make false rape claims. Those who make false claims should be punished, victims of rape shouldn't be.

But transwomen are male and women deserve to keep their hard won protections.

I think we are on the edge of changes we cannot imagine. Conception is changing so much with IVF, donor insemination, three parent children etc. The whole concept of Male/Female, Women/Man, Mother/Father, traditional families and relationships. These are all going to change. You only have to look back to the days of our parents to realise how fast the world is changing.

Yes, maybe the current outpouring of identity politics is the next step for society - a natural progression - going through it’s messy stage.

Do you recognise that you were lucky granny? Do you recognise that women should have the right to refuse mixed wards if they want to Do you recognise that what I was objecting to was being told that mixed ward are unanimously hated? Why do people think they have the right to make that decision for me?

Oddly enough, I got to write a definition of 'woman' once, there was a bit of guff but the bare bones of it was someone who felt themselves to be a woman and lived full time as a woman

I'm getting to the point of lol at some of this nonsense.

By that standard anyone who felt themselves to be an alien and lived full time as an alien is an alien. Or a giraffe, or a dog. It really is that ridiculous and more and more people are seeing through this crap. Just another mra troll really trying to convince us to suck lady dick.

But how do you know they are falsely declaring themselves to be trans when it seems nowadays that the only thing necessary to be trans is to declare it?

That's the problem; I don't believe any of us have any issue at all with the old version of transgender - the people who were trying to fit in as the "opposite sex", who were trying to just get on with their lives. Many of those people had full gender reassignment surgery - and are now being thrown under the bus by the new generation of "I feel therefore I am" trans activists.

It's the Travis's of TopShop fame, the Lily Madigans, the Fallon Fox's, the Martin Ponting/Jessica Winfield's who are causing issues.

That's the whole problem. No-one here has any objection to people being trans (apart from the medicalising of children, but surely everyone must agree that is wrong). Indeed many of us started off as trans supporters; as a minority, most of us would support their rights to employment, healthcare, living in peace etc etc). It's what the people who declare themselves to be trans then demand that is objectionable.

Have you done any research on the rates of regret in transitioning? I've read they're quite high. I quickly Googled (as you could have done to back up your "fairly sure" stance) and the first thing I found was this:

What I actually said was that chemically delaying puberty might be less harmful than the alternatives.

The anecdotes you've supplied are interesting but there is no actually hard facts, it says that the surgeon has preformed seven reversals but gives no figures for the number of operations he had carried out, we don't know if that's ten percent or one percent of nought point nought of his workload.

We also don't know how rigorous the psych vetting is before surgery is in Belgrade. I know that in Thailand you can basically turn up and get the surgery if you have the cash and that it the UK it's a very long and difficult process. Where does Serbia sit?

Just another mra troll really trying to convince us to suck lady dick.

I think this shows that not everyone really wants to discuss this subject in a reasonable or truthful way. Some people don't like being disagreed with so much that they imagine that they are being asked to suck dick.

See I don't see this as a messy stage, I see this as as women getting thrown under the bus as we always have been. But yes, that's messy and we probably shouldn't make a fuss but I don't want my daughter to have less rights than her grandmother.

Funnily enough the trans movement seems to think it is [baffled]. So if you are a woman you have to wear high heels and makeup and make pouty faces in selfies and put kisses at the end of all your tweets.

The trans community are no more one big amorphous mass than any other group are, some wear makeup some don't, some are arseholes some aren't. You don't take away anyone right to self determination because they a are wearing lippy or you don't like the cut of their jib.

I do not know how you can declare a sexuality whilst simultaneously believing that the body and the gender do not match. How can you be a lesbian when everyone could possibly be a woman? the lesbian may even be in denial and really a heterosexual male. Is declaring a sexuality (that is not bi) bigotry in itself.

*I also wonder if I will be on the wrong side of history.

I support trans people's rights to live as they choose, to use the pronouns they prefer, to wear what they want, to live as they want.

But I can't agree that trans women are women and I can't agree that saying that is literal violence against a minority.

I am not a cis woman either. And I object that I cannot define myself as a woman.

And to be honest, I can't believe the majority will go along with the above.

Time will tell.*

I feel very similar as do many women i see speaking of trans issues. It apparently makes us evil, bigoted, violent Terfs - on the wrong side of history - of course.

I think transwomen will also be on the wrong side of history in this brave new world being forged. Old school dysphoric femme transwomen especially.

I think this shows that not everyone really wants to discuss this subject in a reasonable or truthful way

There's really nothing to discuss because you are being unreasonable and untruthful. Woman isn't a feeling in a man's head or living your life in a certain way.

Unless you want to discuss what this feeling is, or how a person lives as a woman?

Surely one teenager who has their penis removed and then wants it back again is one too many . Surely Bath-Spa University should have been positively encouraged to do research on detransitioning.

Silently, have you looked at the reasons people give for allowing their children to "transition"? The vocal, online, trans movement is all about the outward appearance. The main reason parents are told to support their children to transition is that they don't fit traditional boy/girl stereotypes.

The second is fear of suicide - sadly many children/teens are depressed and suicidal. The first port of call shouldn't be chopping off bits of their bodies, rendering them infertile and setting them up for a life of not quite fitting in.

I do not know how you can declare a sexuality whilst simultaneously believing that the body and the gender do not match. How can you be a lesbian when everyone could possibly be a woman? the lesbian may even be in denial and really a heterosexual male. Is declaring a sexuality (that is not bi) bigotry in itself.

Most folk gender and sex match up fine. A tiny minority of people are transgendered. I fancy some women but not all of them. I don't have to have sex with anyone and I only do with those I find sexually attractive. So far, I've had no problems.

Silently, you're suggesting chemically delaying puberty in children below the age of 10, if not younger. Children that can't be expected to know their own minds on something so momentous that will affect them for the rest of their lives.

I didn't supply "anecdotes" (how disparaging when you've provided no facts yourself). I linked three articles from the Guardian, the Independent and Newsweek that I quickly looked at that highlight regret after surgery is a real thing. Therefore, delaying decisions has to be the right thing and chemically delaying puberty can't be the go-to treatment. Do any of us know that the drugs that would do this don't have lasting effects?

You came up with no facts, just that you're "fairly sure" mistakes won't happen. I mean, really, your gut feeling?

As someone said in reference to the same quote of yours I referred to, kids of 2 or 3 are being primed by their parents - "oh, he plays with dolls and wants to dress as Elsa". Kids are influenced. Some maybe not but I'm "fairly sure" a lot are.

If you expect robustness in others arguments try putting some in yourself (i.e. something other than "fairly sure").

history...history....His Story...

I am on the wrong side of His Story , I am on the side of Her Story.

I reject that most folk's gender and sex match up.

Depending on how you define gender obviously

I come up as masculine on every online survey. I wanted to be a boy as a child. I haven't worn makeup or high heels for 30 years. My "gender" is probably male. But that doesn't mean I should transition. I'm a heterosexual woman with male likes and dislikes, male finger lengths, male (apparently) abilities (I can drive, read a map, figure out Ikea flatpack instructions ).

When you say sex and gender match up, what is your definition of gender?

I say gender is bollocks. Sex doesn't have to match/mismatch gender, sex just is.

Surely one teenager who has their penis removed and then wants it back again is one too many shock. Surely Bath-Spa University should have been positively encouraged to do research on detransitioning.

I think that the least harm should be the target, while 78% of transgendered kids (here in Ieland) have considered killing themselves and 40% have attempted it, you have to bring them into the equation when considering doing nothing.

However, as I'm now saying for the third time, I would personally be in favour of delaying puberty until the child is more emotionally mature.

*can you give some examples of where women have been raped by transwomen is prison or on hospital wards?

I'm not in favour of rape, I think it's fucking hideous and I'd be happy to see rapists locked up for the rest of their natural lives but, as far as I'm aware, it's an act mainly carried out by straight men.*

There have been many violent attacks, sex assaults, rapes - even murder cases by transwomen in the past few years. Giving them access to areas full of women and girls - especially where they undress, shower or feel vulnerable such as refuges, dorms and wards - might not be the best idea.

Seems like many of these offending TW do indeed act like violent, deviant men - often towards women and children.

how disparaging when you've provided no facts yourself). I linked three articles from the Guardian, the Independent and Newsweek.

But there were no statistics in those articles. I explained the information that was missing and that three people regretted their surgery isn't statically enlightening when we don't know who many operations were carried out.

You know the KKK said that the civil rights movement trampled on white people's rights too? Whenever a group seek to be treated equally another group claim that they will be pushed down the pecking order

The big huge and significant difference is that women are not a privileged group to start with. The comparison with US-based racial politics doesn’t hold water.

Women don’t run the world in the way that in race politics, white people (men) run the world. The analogy just doesn’t work.