To wonder if I’m just old and possibly on the wrong side of history

[bambambini]

I do wonder if we are possibly seeing the start of a huge shift in society and how people are generally perceived. Many of our young seem to want the future to be different from what we've always had - man/woman, male/female - the binary i guess.

Maybe the future will be where everyone is non binary, where all divisions as we inderstand them are broken down. So you won’t be able to tell for sure what sex anyone is, what body parts they have etc.

I’m critical of the current identity politics debate but that doesn’t mean to say I’m right. Maybe I’m struggling with getting my head around it and accepting it because I’m much older and grew up in different times.

We’ve already seen a huge change in social norms with women getting the vote, the break down of racial segregation, legalisation of homosexuality etc. Maybe identity politics is the natural progression.

The problem is Silently we don't know what the long-term outcomes will be in terms of the effects of taking these drugs to delay puberty or whether this is really what the child wants so caution makes sense. And chemically delaying puberty in kids that don't know they're own minds 100% (which they can't, they're kids) or can really take on board the enormity of what their doing long term is wrong. They are so open to suggestion too and outside influences that no one can be 100% sure this is truly what they want. 20% are regretting it. In a boy this is fundamental part of your body that you can't get back.

20%. Think about it. The damage is irreparable. I don't think any treatment including drugs should be started until adulthood.

Oh do fuck off - 80% makes it ok? Jesus. You can't compare that to cancer. Don't be so stupid.

You're just chucked 20% of transgender people under a bus! What does it matter about them.

Still on the subject of the 20%, it's less so now but when I was young, I would guess that at least 20% of the gay people I knew would have preferred to have been straight. I don't think that they thought that there was anything intrinsically wrong with being gay but society's reaction to them made them uncomfortable about who they were.

How many of that 20% of regretters are the same, less uncomfortable about who they are and what treatment they have had and more uncomfortable about societies reaction to them?

You don't have to read much further than this thread to know that the level of disapproval, distrust and dislike is staggering. Imagine wanting to try on a pair of jeans in Top Shop and the reaction being that you were a predatory sex offender in waiting, it can't be a very comfortable way to live.

How on earth can you compare that to cancer treatment. Utterly facile.

You're just chucked 20% of transgender people under a bus! What does it matter about them.

It seems preferable to chucking 80% under a bus.

However, I am amused that you don't believe self reported sucide stats but you do believe self reports dissatisfaction with surgery stats, how do you square that?

How on earth can you compare that to cancer treatment. Utterly facile.

In my experience, people who kill themselves and those who die of cancer are the same kind of dead. People who are totally miserable have shorter, sicker, less satisfying lives.

Fortunately, no one on the feminist board has any experience of real demonstration or political discord, their views are minority and likely to stay that way. They simply rant on MN.

Not true. Shows how clueless you are.

The redefinition of “Woman”to mean “a feeling in a man’s head” is (I will believe) the single biggest threat to women’s rights in the U.K. because it undermines everything else.

Agree.

Oh you would "guess" would you. Righto.

I can't believe you think it's ok that 20% live to regret surgery. Some young boy mixed up losing his penis is ok to you? I'm speechless that you think 80% is a good success rate without any thought to the individual stories and the mixed up kids growing up within that 20%.

I've no idea what you're "amused" by. I don't find any of this amusing.

Where have I said I don't believe self-reported suicide stats? How can someone that's committed suicide self-report it when dead anyway? And what on earth is "self reports dissatisfaction with surgery stats"? What do you want me to square and why?

Actually forget it. I find you utterly distasteful after your comment that who cares about 20% of these kids and that you would try and compare and link this argument with cancer somehow. Bizarre.

Oddly enough, I got to write a definition of 'woman' once, there was a bit of guff but the bare bones of it was someone who felt themselves to be a woman and lived full time as a woman.

Oddly enough, that's inane circular nonsense. How does one "live as a woman"?

The other 80% don't have to be chucked under a bus. I'm advocating waiting for adulthood before decisions are made so that the figure of 20% is reduced. As these are actually people and their lives we're discussing.

"If we were talking about a success rate of 80% for a cancer treatment, would you suggest that that treatment was discontinued?"

How can you bring cancer into this? What on earth is the relevance of this remark?

Then why is your cabal feeling so threatened that they have to misgender me?

They didn't "misgender" you because they were threatened. The way you are arrogantly grandstanding and don't give a fuck about the feelings and experiences of the women on this thread comes across as typically male. That's why.

Ereshkigal - she listens to nothing and comes out with crap. I have to go to bed. I'm just astounded that she thinks it's fine to chuck 20% of kids under a bus because 80% is a good success rate in the medical world.

Has any cancer treatment got an 80% success rate? Surely that's really high anyway so why would you stop treatment?

There are some interesting figures here about trans children.

Of course, once they have started down the road of hormones/puberty blockers/top surgery etc etc it's pretty hard to back down, but it would seem that many who think they are trans as teenagers don't continue down that road if medication can be deferred.

And I know this is a Daily Mail article but if there is even an ounce of truth in it then no, I don't trust the doctors who are making the decisions here.

4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

Trans identified males are either gay or men with a sexual fetish.

As a mother I would not be trusting the doctors making these decisions either Maryz. Silently seems to think they know it all. Or she's fairly sure at least.

Or guesses.

*“Fortunately, no one on the feminist board has any experience of real demonstration or political discord, their views are minority and likely to stay that way. They simply rant on MN.

Not true. Shows how clueless you are.“*

Not clueless at all but very dishonest and goady and has succeeded in sucking almost every poster into their game. You cannot debate with this person, someone who has consistently lied, made purposefully outrageous statements and claims - and who will twist and turn at every point. But carry on as you were.

Whilst i fully acknowledge rapist are male some women are sex offenders and currently in women's prisons and accessing the women only places you are using etc. This has to be monitored and managed now.

Far fewer women are in prison for sexual offences than men including MTF trans. Figures suggest that half of the known MTF prisoners are there for sexual offences.

Not clueless at all but very dishonest and goady and has succeeded in sucking almost every poster into their game. You cannot debate with this person, someone who has consistently lied, made purposefully outrageous statements and claims - and who will twist and turn at every point. But carry on as you were.

I agree. Sorry for enabling the derail.

Half the people in the world have a penis, the other half a vagina. Their bodies are different.
This incontrovertible fact should be acknowledged. It must be accommodated when it is pertinent and fair to do so.
The world insists upon treating the half with vaginas as though their brains are different. This myth of different brains and the related unfavourable treatment doled out to female people is not warranted. It needs to be acknowledged, and it needs to be changed.

If the only fundamental difference between men and women are bodies, then there is no trans. Only male and female people. No transphobia, no trans hatred. One cannot hate what does not exist. Ideas exist, and one can hate ideas. Beliefs exist, and one can reject beliefs. One can demonstrate fallacies and dismantle beliefs. Rejecting a fellow person's beliefs is not hatred of that person.

Female minds, innate and distinct from male minds, do not exist. And so people with female brains inside male bodies do not exist.

There are simply people with male bodies and people with female bodies. Nothing more. This can't be changed.

The right to assert a lie cannot have precedence over the right to defend the truth.
The right of a male person to assert that HE is fundamentally the same as female people cannot have precedence over the right of the female people to reject that untruth. To demonstrate, and have recognised, the truth - which is that THEY are demonstrably and fundamentally different to him.

It should be enough for women to be able to truthfully demonstrate what they are and who they are and have others acknowledge that.

I'm female. Female body, female existence, human mind. I will not have my existence rendered a contorted lie to suit anyone's agenda.

Male people who believe they are in any way female like me are wrong. I know exactly what makes me the same as other women and different from men.

Silently says "Both children and adults get extensive psychological treatment before they are even considered for more invasive procedures. Years of it."

No they don't. Parents of trans-children, and transwomen on here both said 6 to 12 talking sessions and then it finishes.

The memorandum of understanding means you have affirm someone's gender identity as the first port of call.

Puberty blockers have to be given in the Tanner stage two which is the onset of puberty. Any time between eight and 11 years, generally.

Long-term use of puberty blockers has not been studied. The children taking them now will form the study.

Puberty blockers stop your genitals from developing. If you don't want to have surgery you will have the genitals of a prepubescent child for the rest of your life.

One of the first people to have puberty blockers at age 11 was Jazz Jennings. Who now does not have enough material to create a neovagina. At 17, he's never had an erection, never had an orgasm. Because he has the penis of a child.

If you leave children alone, statistically 80 percent of them will grow out of gender dysphoria. If you start puberty blockers, statistically 100 percent go onto cross sex hormones.

Doctors cannot possibly be scoring 100 percent hit rate. Given the number of detransitions.

By far the most prevalent characteristic for continuing to transition is social transition. The theory being that it is self-perpetuating.

The suicide statistics are skewed. According to the Tavistock, only one child in 10 years has killed themselves.

Given 2000 children a year are showing up at gender clinics, you would be seeing 800 suicides a year if that 40 percent translated to completed suicide.

All the statistics, and links to peer reviewed studies can be advanced searched on MN.

Great posts, Datun and Barracker.