No presents for DD?

[ilovemilton]

DD has been no contact with abusive DF since the summer, “breaking” the court order, but with his permission.

DF texts her in Nov, asking her what she would like for Christmas. She gives him a list. It’s the first time he has attempted to make any contact with her since it broke down. They have never had a good relationship.

DS attends contact on Christmas Day, she asks for her presents to be sent back with him. DF replied “nope, you chose to break the order, you get your presents when you attend.”

Tonight he brought DS home, with a bag of presents “from the family, not the ones from me.”

He knew all along that she won’t be attending again, they have no relationship at all.

AIBU to either expect him to send the presents, or not to have ever even asked what she wanted? Is he playing a cruel game or should DD just accept the consequences of not seeing him?

I suspect this horrible man sees his fallout with your daughter as an extension of his separation from you -she's a bitch, just like her mother. He sounds vile but take heart. Your daughter won't be so easily fooled next year by a request for a birthday or Christmas list. As each month passes both of your children are getting older with their views becoming more and more difficult for the courts to ignore.

I think you are right to keep out of it whilst your daughter shows the ability and strength to stand up to him heself. I have to say, having also read your previous posts, that i think your case must have an enormous history for the courts to have made the decisions that they have.

Protecting your children is not just about keeping him away, it is also keeping them away from this sort of toxic knowledge/interaction. Lots of children have relationships with the absent parent despite horrible divorces. I appreciate this may not be possible and admire your daughter's perception, unfortunately, it brings lots of unhappiness with it.

Yes but a lot of the court history has been caused unnecessarily. He’s applied for hearings for me refusing to change the order at the drop of a hat when he has made a mistake, for me expecting him to keep the children when school is closed on a day he cares for them, cheap clothes that no longer fit being thrown away, not letting him take them out of school for a week for a funeral, me not providing all clothing for his house, other people reporting neglect, me reporting children’s injuries, me not providing lifts when the order states I am not to, the children reporting things to school, DD wanting swimming lessons...

All this for free as he got his employer mate to write that HE suffered domestic abuse from ME and he witnessed it. I’ve never even met the man. I spent more on solicited fees than my wages most months.

I thank God everytime i read posts like yours that i was never unlucky enough to end up with a man like this, your situation now is so difficult, but time will pass. It is a waiting game. Do everything you can to imagine this man is a much smaller influence in your lives until he is only an inch high.

I told DD this. She waited and now she’s hopefully free.
In some ways it’s worse now that DS does it alone but you can see the change in him now. It’s like you’re wishing their life away though.

'Waited' for what? and why 'hopefully'? Of her own volition your daughter is no contact with her father. Why is he not blocked from contacting her - and she him (she's 12)?

Why is your son being left to his own devices to visit a father he doesn't want to see? He's 8. When are you going to stand up for him?

I'm sorry Milton but I couldn't stand by as passively as you are. You have the evidence and you're their mother. I now think there's much more to this than you've posted about on this thread, which is your right but what was the point of it?

lying the op is scared that the courts will reverse residency to the father if she does not comply with contact. They put the fear of God in mothers, if they do not comply with unsafe contact. Op is already on her last chance with the judge it seems, and they go through with it. My friend is in this position, she has to comply with emotionally abusive contact with his abusive father, as she is scared courts will reverse residency to the father, that is far worse.

Like many abused women in op position, she is stuck between a rock and a hard place with no support from agencies who are meant to be acting in tge best interests of her kids.

No, Aeroflot, the OP and her children are no longer living with her ex partner. OP's daughter is already no contact (by some sort of verbal agreement with the ex that could be rescinded at any time), yet it's still in place and daughter didn't visit her father. OP's son doesn't want to go, is miserable able doing so and yet he is 'forced'?

With respect, neither you nor your friend - or my own circumstances - are relevant here because the detail of OP's situation is unclear and the main thrust of the thread was about presents rather than contact.

I have every sympathy and solidarity for women who are acting in the best interests of their children but quite frankly, the OP is not. For whatever reason. I think of my own children and couldn't imagine standing by without taking this up with my solicitor/changing counsel as necessary - to get the best outcome for my children.

You, I, we - do not have a full picture. OP's prerogative of course, but surmise and head-patting is just that.

*miserable about doing so

I know I could not myself, I do tell my friend , since court ended 5 years ago, to now withdraw contact, but she is so scared of him taking her to court all over again, and for the judge to reverse residency, despite ex being his nasty self in court and in front of the judge.

I think because op dd is older, she Is now 12, she has more of a say in the matter. There will come a time when DS is too old for her to make him go, I guess he won't have contact with his father either.

I personally have no experience of the FC system, but my friend described it like being abused all over again, along with the dreadful CaFCaSs, officer plugging her own agenda, and also having some sort of attraction with her ex

I don't doubt that the system is horribly flawed but it's the one we all have to work with. If I were the judge, looking at the particulars of what OP has posted, and assuming that there is a reason why residency might be re-awarded - I'd revisit the whole thing and wouldn't rule out putting the children in care.

I don't say that lightly at all, I know what that entails, but this scenario is untenable for children and OP's conduct makes me shy away as it departs from everything I feel as a mother. I was supportive of the OP to start but the later posts have made me sincerely hope that she's a troll/fantasist and I'm not going to indulge somebody who has her priorities so screwed up, in 'there, there, OP', anymore.

I don't know, from op description of him and his abuse, I could not allow contact with a man like that, but then again I have no experience of the family court system and how it makes mother's feel.

Almost every contact cases that goes to court are because parents are in serious conflict,each thinking the other one is being abusive, manipulative, a danger to the children.

You read threads posted by stepmums and they tell you frightening stories about mums who are manipulating their kids against their dad, how they have done everything to make them hate their father because they themselves haven't got over the ending of their marriage, and their kids end up psychologically messed up, yet the court wont see it and will still let the mum have custody.

Then you have the threads like OPs, describing exactly the same but from the other end. When either don't get their way, they will consider that the judge/court/system is wrong and perverse.

Each are quite powerless once it gets to that point so I understand that OP feels that her hands are tight. Similarly, her ex, who almost inevitably would post that he isn't abusive but that OP is alienating her DD must feel powerless that his only option is to pay to go back to court to enforce the judgement, all this to have a child who tells you that they hate your guts and would rather be anywhere else but there.

Unless you have experienced the court system for yourself or know somebody who does, your none the wiser, and believe that they act in the child's best interests, when they don't always.

Maybe, but that can go either way and at least, they really do look at the children best interests, not that of the parents, who unfortunately, often make decision for their benefits even though they are convinced it is for their children.

In the end, it is always the children who suffer when parents can't work things out for themselves. As said before, my DS has chosen not to see his dad any longer, but I know I've done everything in my powers to avoid this, taking a lot on the chin and although his dad is upset and the type to blame everyone but him, knows that he can't blame me. He actually contacted me to ask me what he'd done wrong, but it was hard to explain and advise. I made some suggestions, but I doubt he'll go with them. Thankfully, he hasn't suggested that I tell him he had to go as I wouldn't do that.

Not always Swing, they do not! My friend went to the high court and was awarded based on factual evidence, supervised contact with his father, the local judge overruled that, and awarded unspervised contact, ignored all her evidence, just because the father told him that if he has supervised contact he wont want to see ds anymore. She was threatened with reverse residency if she did not comply with contact. He was sexually abusive towards ds, but the agencies responsible protecting the child, did not seem interested, as it could not be proved, its was neither here nor there. Police were involved, and ds gave clear consistent accounts, whilst ex lied and his view of accounts did not correlate.

It was dropped due to lack of evidence, and contact had to resume. The father now, instead of sexually abusing him, targets him through EA and neglect. The boy is 9, and the court case has closed. Yet my friend still is frightened of court, and how she was treated, and has to send ds, despite him not wanting to go and detesting his dad.

Abusive men tend to use the court system as a form of control, not because they want contact, but because that is the only way they can still have control over their ex partner who have escaped their abuse and control Yes there are women who do alienate the children from their father, for no good reason, as to be manipulative and controlling.

In cases where there is evidence of DV in the relationship, that parental alienation should be used.

Meant should not be used

The point of the thread was how it started. People asked questions, I answered and it escalates. The only things that are left out are the details are more of similar events. Yes Aeroflot that is exactly my position. DD is “hopefully” free because he continues to threaten court despite telling her she doesn’t need to go. DS continues to go as he collects him according to the court order. He doesn’t do this for DD. If DS didn’t go, we would be straight back in court, with residency yet again threatened. That is how I am acting in the children’s best interests - ensuring that they still live with me and aren’t left with just one abusive parent.

Exactly op, with op withdrawing contact with DS, there is a chance residency can be transferred back to dad and op will not see him again, yes that's the reality. This has happened to serveral women on the DV support group I am on. At least with complying with cintact, DS is with her most of the time, so she can contract the negative affects of contact on her DS, by being a loving and nurturing patent. And providing a safe consistent environment for him.

That is exactly how my friend sees it too.

Exactly Aeroflot. Also, I feel that if residency was transferred to him, the neglect, harm and results of their living conditions would soon become evident, and the children would be taken into care. At the moment, such damage isn’t seen, as I provide the healthy food, routines, clothes, cleanliness, activities...that they wouldn’t otherwise have.

But Aeroflotgirl, she's your friend, so you'll here her version of the situation, and understandably, you will go with what she tells you. It's not even a case of lying, but of different perspective. For all you know, if you happened to have been friends with her OH and he was the one confiding in you, so you might have been posting about what a great decision the local judge made.

The point is that each side will be greatly emotionally involved and therefore see things from their sides. Even experts can agree, some will say that parental alienation doesn't really exist, others will say that it does and does a lot of damage. Some will say that a man who is emotionally or even physically abusive towards a partner doesn't mean they will be towards his children. Some will say that 'abuse' is hard to define and that one can be abusive in a very overt way, whilst the most destructible abuse is the one that is done in a very covered way.

If it got to the point that the judge threatened a shift in residency, then there must be a lot more to the whole thing that what has been shared on this thread. It is not common that it gets to that extreme point.

Against all what it appears, I do feel sorry for OP because she clearly strongly believes that her OH is abusive towards her children and when you believe this, the prospect of having no choice but to expose your children to this is horrendous. At the same time, from what has been written on this thread, I think there is a lot of mixed messages that are going to the children that is a form of abuse too in my perspective.

Although I agree that she couldn't tell him that he shouldn't give her presents as she wouldn't be seeing him, I do think that the right thing to do would have been to have a serious discussion with her DD and explained to her that it wasn't right to ask where her presents were when her son was dropped her brother and to explain to her that the best way to deal with someone abusive is to ignore them, not to respond to them in an aggressive way, ie. acting the way they do themselves.

I really don't have any experience of this so I'll just extend my sympathies to everybody because it's a really shitty situation to be in, obviously. Do children have to comply with contact until they're 18? If so, it's going to be a miserable time for them.

Milton is there no way that you could find another solicitor? It simply cannot be that Ex's evidential texts are admissible yet yours are not, can it? I'm aghast that our judicial system is no longer even fair if that's the case.

Just idly musing, no need to reply. I'm so sorry for the situation you and your children are in.

I don't think so swing, by your accounts there are no abusive men about, and women and children do not get abused. There must be a different side to the story. Stop minimising abuse! I have seen what he has done to her and DS.

Swing you think the court system if infailliable without fault, I wod like you to meet the women in my DV support group, then you will see. It's good that you put so much trust into it. No thank you I would not be friends with a rapist and a sex abuser hevis a thoroughly nasty piece of work.