No presents for DD?

[ilovemilton]

DD has been no contact with abusive DF since the summer, “breaking” the court order, but with his permission.

DF texts her in Nov, asking her what she would like for Christmas. She gives him a list. It’s the first time he has attempted to make any contact with her since it broke down. They have never had a good relationship.

DS attends contact on Christmas Day, she asks for her presents to be sent back with him. DF replied “nope, you chose to break the order, you get your presents when you attend.”

Tonight he brought DS home, with a bag of presents “from the family, not the ones from me.”

He knew all along that she won’t be attending again, they have no relationship at all.

AIBU to either expect him to send the presents, or not to have ever even asked what she wanted? Is he playing a cruel game or should DD just accept the consequences of not seeing him?

She hasn’t thrown a tantrum. She challenged him about his game playing and told him to not bother asking again.
But she was playing a game too, prepared to accept presents from him even though she wants nothing to do with him and her response was not telling him not to bother, it was much a spiteful response.

She is 11, only a child, it's the fact that you can't seem to be able to see how manipulative her attitude was too that is concerning. As said, I am exactly in the same position than you with my DS, but never ever would have allowed him to accept, let alone ask for gifts from his dad without seeing him.

The issue of contact is totally different to the issue of her attitude to the gifts.

A 12 year old child wanting presents is not a sign of manipulation, it’s just a sign of being a normal 12 year old.
just like it's ok for girls to accept treats from classmates and then tell them that they don't want to be their friends because they don't like them. At school it's called bullying, but it's ok at home?

Even if the child can't understand this, surely OP should have had that talk to her DD, but it would seem that she doesn't think she's done anything wrong telling her dad the presents she wanted.

That’s how I feel motherbear. He knew all along she wouldn’t be spending the day with him. And I don’t blame her after last year!

I don’t allow her to behave this way, I stay out of it. I’ve been in too much trouble in the past for being involved in their conversations. He really does nothing to help the situation.

Swing, you can’t compare the two. The analogy you used is of course bullying and nasty behaviour. Pushing the boundaries with a parent who has proven themselves to be unreliable and manipulative is absolutely normal behaviour and is to be expected. If the father genuinely wanted to reconcile, he would have given her the presents or not offered on the first place. You can’t blame a child in this situation for acting out. And you certainly can’t say that she is being manipulative for accepting his offer.

In their heart of hearts, every child just wants their parents to love them unconditionally, however much they try and disguise it with flippant comments. I’m just sorrry that this poor child was disappointed yet again.

I know very well that if I had told her to refuse presents, he would have been straight back in court saying he was trying to fix the relationship but mother wouldn’t even let her have Christmas presents off me.

ilovemilton, he sounds absolutely vile. What options are there for you to get this 'contact' looked at - with another judge? The instance that you described above made me so angry for you.

There must be something that can be done to actually challenge these ridiculous rules that are so in favour of appalling people wanting contact.

Motherbear they were both very disappointed. DS is still back and forth with his thoughts about his DF, and continues to hope that it will be good. He maintained that he didn’t want to go on Christmas Day but was persuaded to go. He came back very sad and disappointed and feeling that he had wasted his day.

Your last post ilovemilton, that would be hearsay, wouldn't it? Or would the texts be evidence? I'm thinking that if they are 'evidence' for your ex to use then the same applies for you - and you can use the ones you have as evidence of his abusive behaviour.

It’s written into the order that when it returns to court, it is always to return to the same judge and the same cafcass officer.

Lyingwitch. The same never seems to apply to me. He turns up to court with all his texts, taken selectively out of context. They all read them. We present the whole conversation and we are told it is irrelevant and to put them away.
Same with cafcass. He had their mobile number and called every time something went wrong. I was told not to contact cafcass to complain about contact.

Is there no 'ombudsman' sort of thing for this? Apologies for stupid question but I have no experience or knowledge of this. It just seems so grossly unfair and NOT in the best interests of the child(ren).

He text her asking what she wanted for Christmas
And at this point, she should have responded 'I haven't changed my mind, still don't want contact and don't want presents from you'. If she wasn't half expecting them, she shouldn't have been asking where they were as soon as DS came back.

Some people are asking for a degree of sophistication from a twelve-year-old that many people four times her age don't have.

As for the OP telling her dd to refuse the presents, wouldn't that have been considered parental alienation under the circs? A no-win situation all round.

x-posted with you ilovemilton; I don't know what to suggest other than that you perhaps ask somebody on the legal board here? They might have some ideas for you. It's beyond presents, contact obviously needs to be stopped, but how you might achieve this I have no idea.

Op thanks for that, really a thoroughly nasty and abusive man not only to you, but to his kids. Unfortunately the courts seem to mostly side with the father, not always, but most, the outcome is a lottery, it depends if the judge is clued up or not, unfortuately yours was not, Ilove. A 12 year old wanting presents, that's normal, she is just 12, he is a grown adult who is using the situation to manipulate.

I would totally support your dd is refusing contact, especially it is evident that neither CAFCASS or the judge has the well being and safety at the centre of proceedings.

You can support your dd in what she wishes to do, and if you tell her not to accept his presents, unfortunately it will be seen negatively by the court as you coercing her.

Some people are asking for a degree of sophistication from a twelve-year-old that many people four times her age don't have.
Maybe not said that way, but she could easily have said 'I'm not sure, I'll let you know' and then if he insisted, she could have ignored his texts.

I know very well that if I had told her to refuse presents, he would have been straight back in court saying he was trying to fix the relationship but mother wouldn’t even let her have Christmas presents off me.

The issue on the actual day, when you say this:
DS attends contact on Christmas Day, she asks for her presents to be sent back with him
She asked whom, her father or her DS? If DS, it was very unfair to ask her brother as putting him in an awkward position, if she actually texted her dad to say this, well, is she and you really surprised that he didn't come with them? And it's only HIS presents he didn't bring, he brought those of his family. Does she not see them either?

Poor kids shouldn’t be forced to spend time with him if they don’t want to. I hope you managed to salvage some sort of Christmas together.

As for the OP telling her dd to refuse the presents, wouldn't that have been considered parental alienation under the circs? A no-win situation all round.
I think if she'd told her daughter that it wasn't really right to accept presents when she is refusing to see her dad breaking the order, I think the judge would actually have more sympathy, then the judge hearing that she was refusing to see him but asking for him to bring her present back home and then talking to him the way she did when she got disappointed that he didn't.

I’ve said before that I’ve tried to make arrangements with exh family so at least the cousins can spend time together but it’s been refused. They haven’t spoken to DD since she stopped seeing DF.

Swing, why are you so determined to blame this situation on a 12 year old girl? It’s very easy to say what she could or couldn’t have done after the event.

Also, I’m aware she is breaking the order, but she has numerous texts from him saying that she doesn’t have to go if she doesn’t want to. Then he threatens me with court for her not going. I can’t win.

Swing, why are you so determined to blame this situation on a 12 year old girl? It’s very easy to say what she could or couldn’t have done after the event.
Because I think I spend enough time on the stepmum forum where I read about the same kind of situation from their perspective and that of the ex. I am normally always thinking that they are exaggerating the situation, that no mum would think that it was ok for their child to expect presents to be delivered at their doorstep when the child refuse to see the parent, especially when that parent has gone to court and the court has granted them visitation rights.

Now reading it from the other side, I can start to understand better their position. I'm not blaming the 12yo athough yes, I think she should know better, I am blaming OP for not telling her DD that is not acceptable to accept presents from people you want nothing to do with.

Ilovemilton, what's going on is obvious. He doesn't want to force his DD to go, but he is hoping to rekindle his relationship with her. He was hoping that offering presents would give him a chance to talk to her and see about working something out. He is clearly pissed off that she was prepared to demand the presents but not spend any time with him.

Again, I am not blaming you for not encouraging her to see him. I do believe that at 12, she should be able to decide (something that many don't agree with), but as much as I think a 12yo is capable of making that decision, they should also be mature enough to know that you can't have your cake and eat it.

I don't think that swingofthings is blaming OPs' daughter at all. I do agree though that the presents-thing muddies the waters and really, it's not ok to court gifts from someone you want nothing to do with. OP's daughter is 12 though... needs guidance there.

I personally thought that what OP's daughter said in her text AFTER not receiving the presents would have been better said when her father asked her what she would like. Against, guidance needed there and if she were my daughter, I would have been monitoring any contact made by her dad since DD didn't want contact.

But, I have no idea of the dynamics of the family really, it just all seems very sad.

*Again, not against.

... and I'm trying to put myself in the position of OP's ex here and I know that I would have done my level best to get whatever was on DD's list, put it in a nice Christmas bag with a Christmas card saying, "Happy Christmas, I love you, always will" - and sent that off with her brother.

Because that's what I would have wanted for myself if I were OP's DD. Unconditional, no strings gifts if any were to be given.