No presents for DD?

[ilovemilton]

DD has been no contact with abusive DF since the summer, “breaking” the court order, but with his permission.

DF texts her in Nov, asking her what she would like for Christmas. She gives him a list. It’s the first time he has attempted to make any contact with her since it broke down. They have never had a good relationship.

DS attends contact on Christmas Day, she asks for her presents to be sent back with him. DF replied “nope, you chose to break the order, you get your presents when you attend.”

Tonight he brought DS home, with a bag of presents “from the family, not the ones from me.”

He knew all along that she won’t be attending again, they have no relationship at all.

AIBU to either expect him to send the presents, or not to have ever even asked what she wanted? Is he playing a cruel game or should DD just accept the consequences of not seeing him?

The rude bit was the verbal conversation at the door. Her texts are quite clear and give good reasons for her not attending. He however, responds to her like a child himself and the texts she receives from him are dreadful.
Then she should have no thank you dad, I don't want/need any presents from you rather than responding with a LIST of presents.

Believe me, I know about your frustrations. When I moved a mere 20 minutes away from where we lived, my ex told me that as I'd chosen to move town, I should be fully responsible for bringing them and picking them up EVERY week-end, despite the fact that he didn't pay any maintenance at all and I did it and when they were old enough to take the bus, I paid for it every week-end, yet still not getting a penny from him even though he was working. I did it all for my kids because I'd always hoped that at least if was a decent father to them, it was worth it all. It was for DD it wasn't for DS, but at least I have a good conscience that I did (and am still trying) everything I could so that he could build a relationship with his dad.

Swing, really not sure why you are prioritising politeness to someone abusive.

If I get mugged I shouldn't swear at the mugger? If someone touches my bum on the street I shouldn't give them a dirty look? Or is this just because he's her dad - parents, even shitty ones, should be spoken to nicely? And this should be enforced by the ex-partner that they were abusive to?

Just want to check I've understood your view correctly.

Swing, really not sure why you are prioritising politeness to someone abusive.
Where did I say she had to be polite? All she needed to do was ignore him, but funny how she chose not to so when he mentioned presents and then turn herself abusive when she didn't get her way.

If I get mugged I shouldn't swear at the mugger?
If you had a friend you used to be close to but then decided to be nasty so you've decided to have nothing to do with them, would you tell them what you wanted for your birthday when they contacted you and offered, and would you them text them that the last thing you would want is to see them on your birthday when you realised that they hadn't mailed the present? Really?

Pannacott my view exactly. She was hardly abusive, in fact, what she said is nothing compared to the things he says to her on the doorstep usually.

Let’s just get things in the right order. She has maintained no contact with him. He’s made no effort to fix the relationship, despite his court threats. He text her asking what she wanted for Christmas. She made it clear that she wasn’t seeing him again. He still wanted to know what she wanted. She gave him a list, only half expecting to get it, based on last year. She refused contact as she has done for 6+ months. In the evening, she asked for her presents, and he gave her the sarcastic response, which he then reinforced by making a point of bringing “all the presents but mine”.

He text her asking what she wanted for Christmas.
And at this point, she should have responded 'I haven't changed my mind, still don't want contact and don't want presents from you'. If she wasn't half expecting them, she shouldn't have been asking where they were as soon as DS came back.

You clearly think her attitude is appropriate, her DF doesn't and from what you've written, I personally think you are encouraging her to have an entitlement attitude, but that's my point of view and I'm a total stranger. The court will make up their own minds.

ilovemilton, I'm nc with my dad and have been for about 20 years, but obviously I'm an adult. Your daughter is just 12 and she has years of nc to come to terms with, but she will.

I read on a post recently, regarding contact, that a poster was advised (so as not to defy a court order), to open the front door and leave to another room. The child(ren) would then be able to go out to meet their father - or just shut the door. She would have complied with the terms which were to 'make the children available'.

I don't know how relevant that is for your daughter and son but you have my sympathies. I think both children will feel the loss of a father quite keenly throughout their lives (I have, to be honest) but no father is better than having one like this.

I understand OP. If she had come back saying no presents you were worried that he would twist it so that it looks like you were forbidding presents. You're stuck between a rock and a hard place.

No advice but wanted to say I get it.

Just to clarify ilove how was this man abusive to you? Why did you call the Police on him? What did he do? If he was abusive to you, did your children witness it? What did they see if he was?

Just to pull this thread back, as it seems to have lost perpective. With people blaming an 12 year old for giving her dad a present list whilst ignoring the wider circle of abuse and manipulation from this man towards op and his chikdren

I do agree about the presents thing though. You don't accept presents from somebody you don't want to have contact with. If your daughter has been no contact for six months then he should have been blocked from her phone and anywhere else. That's really what I would have done as her mother. If she'd changed her mind then I would have run interference with my ex to re-establish that contact for her as she's only 12.

What's your/your children's relationship like with your ex-in law's? Could the issue of presents from the family be side-stepped by you taking a role (if possible) to broker contact between your children and their extended family (not their father)?

The dd has to be a good compliant girl, and be nice to a man like this and op should be telling her off and correcting her. So she will learn later, she has to be a good lady and be compliant in her adult relationships with men, even if he is manipulative and abusive.

Who is saying that, Aeroflot?

If it were my daughter, I'd be supporting her in her 'no contact' stance if that is what she wanted. I wouldn't though encourage her to engage about 'presents' from somebody she doesn't want contact with. Would you? This is the outcome of that...

Mipmip exactly.

Aeroflot a point I have raised and has worried me throughout.

Physical abuse prior to leaving. Found out afterwards that it was towards the children too and they witnessed more than I thought towards me. Police were always turned away by him at the point and I never gave a statement against him.

When he worked out I wanted to leave and I had told people, it turned more emotional and financial. This was actually the most scary part.

Police have been called connected with contact when DD ran away and he dragged her back, when DD went missing from his care and he didn’t tell me, when DS was held up to a wall by his neck, when DD returned with bruises and when I was assaulted on my doorstep. He just denies it all and acts like I am completely crazy and he has no idea what I am talking about.

Does any of the abuse happen at the door OP? Just wondering if you can set up a discreet camera - a lot of the problems seem to be no one believing just how unpleasant he is.

Hi Milton I have had a very similar situation with my dc. They haven't seen DF for more than 6 months (because of DF behaviour)and DF didn't send dc a bday card or present as a result. I'm the past 4 weeks DF has sent several texts to dc enquiringly how he is and what they would like for Christmas, I suspect loneliness guilt and the looming family dinner were part of the reason for the resumed contact. Initially my dc eyes widened at the prospect of gifts but he thought better of it and replied that he didn't want anything from him. My dc is just a bit older than yours. You can't blame your dd she is a child and your ex knew what he was doing to try and lure her back.
Fortunately/unfortunately my dc has spent years of dealing with DF shittty abusive behaviour and has had to learn the hard way. DF will always try to blame me as he is ignorant to the impact of his own behaviour to his dc.

Lyingwitch. I’ve always made them available despite my instincts. DD refuses, runs away, generally kicks off.

At one point I was ordered to leave them crying in his street and drive off. Then they decided me driving them to him was too manipulative and so he has to collect. So I open the door and leave them to it. He usually starts the conversation along the lines of “get out now you little brat” and it goes downhill from there.

Now he mostly collects them from school, which still doesn’t go without incident. Since DD goes to high school, there is now a meeting point, which I have mentioned before - he has never been to it or discussed it with her.

nameisnotuser thanks for sharing. Seems like so many people have the same experience.

WRT extended family, they sent minimal token goods compared to what DS had. I’ve tried to facilitate things so the cousins can all meet etc but they reply that they don’t want to get involved. DD didn’t attend the family holiday and was sent texts from them about how disappointed they were in her.

I think it’s perfectly obvious from the man’s behaviour with the presents that he is not a great df or role model. I hate this attitude that it’s the dm behind the scenes controlling the dc and turning them against the df. While I’m sure that does sometimes happen, I am also sure that if a man is a good father and loves his dc, there is not a thing a dm can do to turn those children against him. My dm couldn’t have turned me or my siblings against our df (not that she would have ever had reason to try) because we knew he was a good man who loved us and always put us first. The same goes for my dh and our kids.

My friend and her dc had an awful time in court trying to convince them that her ex was abusive and the dc did not want to see him. She actually said that he had never hurt the dc and she trusted him not to do so in the future but the dc were refusing to go (probably as a result of witnessing what this man had done to their dm). Eventually the courts and social workers believed them and stopped trying to enforce contact but this isn’t always the case. I think it’s awful that our courts don’t trust or value the opinions of the children that have to live with these decisions.

This child has done nothing wrong. Instead of questioning her manners, we ought to be asking why she is showing such disregard for her ‘df’ in the first place.

Mipmip the assault on me was recorded on my phone. That’s not admissible in court apparently.

The dd has to be a good compliant girl, and be nice to a man like this and op should be telling her off and correcting her. So she will learn later, she has to be a good lady and be compliant in her adult relationships with men, even if he is manipulative and abusive.
What does this mean? She doesn't have to be compliant to anything. As it's been pointed out, OP should have made sure that his number was blocked and no contact meant no contact at all, not no contact except just before Xmas and I can give a list of presents I really really want.

I don't get how some posters can't see the signs of manipulation coming from a kid who says they want no contact but who is happy to ask for presents and then throw a tantrum when they don't get them. If my kids had a manipulative father, I would be especially keen to make sure my kids showed no sign of the same traits.

Why aren't YOU going back to court to stop your DS going to such an abusive place? Surely that's much more of a priority that DD not getting presents?

She hasn’t thrown a tantrum. She challenged him about his game playing and told him to not bother asking again.

It’s clear from the last four years that I would get nowhere in trying to get the courts to agree to no contact. Add the that the extreme debt I now have, from being taken to court approx every three months for four years. I hate that my son goes, it fills me with dread but they aren’t interested. DF right to contact is priority.

A 12 year old child wanting presents is not a sign of manipulation, it’s just a sign of being a normal 12 year old. A fully grown man taking a list, promising said presents, then refusing to hand them over because the child won’t spend the day with him, that’s manipulation.

And the op has already said that she is afraid to go back to court as she was not believed previously and fears the loss of her dc.