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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think that Ian Huntley is most definitely not a woman?

525 replies

ATeardropExplodes · 28/12/2017 17:09

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/15/call-lian-child-killer-ian-huntley-has-told-inmates-call-feminine/

If anyone has any evidence to convince me otherwise please do enlighten me, thanks in advance.

OP posts:
Datun · 29/12/2017 09:30

Is this really about Ian Huntley or about pushing an anti trans agenda?

Seriously. What does it take? How many times does it have to be said? No one is anti-trans. They are anti dangerous men identifying as trans.

Yes, of course, some trans people will fall into that category. By dint of statistics. (And the AGP cohort provide another, different problem.) But it's about predatory men being enabled by the trans-narrative.

Before transgenderism was on anyone's radar, what do you think the public reaction would be to housing dangerous men in women's prisons? Because they said they wanted to be.

It's a silencing tactic to to tell women they cannot speak about dangerous men for fear they might offend other men.

Stop it.

Humpsfor20yards · 29/12/2017 09:34

Japab, you're a fella aren't you?

I find it really sweet that you just read the op and thought 'oh ian Huntley identifies as a woman, I'd better call him a she'

Humpsfor20yards · 29/12/2017 09:36

And 1dad, you're male right?

And you see nothing here to discuss?

Nice.

Lovesagin · 29/12/2017 09:38

Were just a load of hysterical women Humps.

Until it affects them that is. Which it will.

Maryz · 29/12/2017 09:38

Right, JAPAB's latest post has confirmed my opinion; he doesn't want a reasoned argument, he is just saying any old irrational thing to get a response. His latest (first bit is quote from the op) :

"This is a false analogy as someone's brother CAN be gay, but someone CANNOT just change into a woman." You are conflating someone's sex with gender.

This is ridiculous. The op is simply stating that one fact is possible, the other is not. No mention of gender at all.

HolgerDanske · 29/12/2017 09:39

It is ANTI-WOMAN to push onto womanhood an agenda by a MALE minority whose sole purpose is to deny the biological facts and associated rights of womanhood. No, you cannot decide that you are a biological woman. You are a MAN living as a woman.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 29/12/2017 09:41

I have a feeling that all of our carefully crafted terms are flying over some posters heads!

We say "Man living as a woman"

They read "Man is woman"

There is no way round such density of thought Smile

Datun · 29/12/2017 09:41

The switching of the gender/sex goalpost is so tedious.

Someone changes their gender, which should be fine? When, in fact, to all intents and purposes, it's a change of sex.

Literally no one would care if it was just gender, with nothing ceded because of sex.

Rebeccaslicker · 29/12/2017 09:42

When Ian Huntley can talk about how it feels to be riddled with period pain and still have to go to school/work and pretend it's fine for 1-3 days a month, 12 times a year; when he can walk down the street and have men catcall him; when he can be in a bar and have men groping him and wonder why he is displeased by it; when he can look around at work and realise it's nearly all men at the top even in 2017; when he can open a newspaper or the internet and be bombarded with judgments about how he looks the entire time; when he will be under constant societal pressure to get married and have kids or justify his decision nonstop; when he could move to certain countries and be very oppressed - THEN he can talk about "being a woman".

Unless and until he can do these things, he can dress and act how he thinks a woman can dress and act, but he isn't a woman.

HolgerDanske · 29/12/2017 09:44

That’s because gender is a ridiculous concept too.

HolgerDanske · 29/12/2017 09:46

And there is a huge difference between the two terms, it’s not just a tedious matter of terminology.

SimonBridges · 29/12/2017 09:47

I think this post is far more aimed at say transwomen = murderers and sex offenders than it is about Ian Huntley or the wider trans debate.

I wouldn’t like to say that I speak for all women here but I think it is fair to say that most of us understand that most transwomen are just people trying to get on with their lives like everyone else. They are no more likely to be sex offenders than other people.

The worry is that people like Huntley can suddenly announce that they want to be known as Susan and can waltz off to a female prison or get special privileges.

Datun · 29/12/2017 09:47

That’s because gender is a ridiculous concept too.

Yes. But, at least historically, it just meant presentation.

Which, although I agree rigourously reinforces gender stereotypes, at least it doesn't fall off the cliff into insanity.

k2p2k2tog · 29/12/2017 09:47

You are a MAN living as a woman.

Indeed, and to paraphrase Prince Charles, whatever "living as a woman means". I have no problem at all with people wearing what they want, using cosmetics or not as they please or doing what they want in their spare time. We should be a tolerant, accepting society where a man attending an embroidery group or a woman enrolling on a car mechanics course is not seen as anything unusual.

However, taking a step further than that and accepting that acually you can change your biological sex on a whim is not something I'll accept.

1DAD2KIDS · 29/12/2017 09:47

SmileEachDay I think OP knows better than to openly suggest anything like that overtly in the current climate. I think they are trying to subtlety plant the seads of such views in the MN community. But it's clear from their other input they want a debate on the wider trans issue, with is fine. The spin is what interests me. Reading between the lines one would suspect they have gone out their way to find an article from Feb to deliberately find one of the most vile people they can find to open up the debate with. The agenda behind the original post I suspect is far less about Ian Huntley or the wider trans debate and more about demonisation.

HolgerDanske · 29/12/2017 09:49

Datun yes, quite.

It’s just utter insanity.

Maryz · 29/12/2017 09:51

Yes, while transwomen were saying they "felt like women" and wanted to "behave/present as women" I could sort of understand it, even though I have no idea how it feels to be a woman as opposed to a man, and even though most women I know don't really "behave or present" like a woman - especially the type of woman people like Caitlyn Jenner seem to want to emulate.

However when they cross over into "I am a woman" (see Lily Madigan and her "I am a lesbian" tweet), then I'm not so ok with letting it go.

SmileEachDay · 29/12/2017 09:51

Reading between the lines? 1DAD

If anyone has any evidence to convince me otherwise please do enlighten me, thanks in advance.

Where is the agenda?

Lovesagin · 29/12/2017 09:52

You're so wrong about this thread 1Dad, the subject was mentioned elsewhere and was off topic so op created this thread.

But do crack on with your theories, theyre cute :)

SmileEachDay · 29/12/2017 09:52

Show me a post that demonises trans people.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 29/12/2017 09:57

Reading between the lines one would suspect they have gone out their way to find an article from Feb to deliberately find one of the most vile people they can find to open up the debate with.

Except you are ignoring the FACTS - you know, those things that actually are - there are very recent article, recaps in a lot of papers... OP has linked to one... an earlier version, that all the more current ones are based on.

KEEP UP 1DAD, KEEP UP Google can be your friend Smile

Datun · 29/12/2017 09:57

1DAD2KIDS

A recurring characteristic of this theme is that people post things to illustrate their point, and get accused of tarring everyone with the same brush.

People say oh my God you think every transwoman is like that!

How many makes the point? Ian Huntley clearly hasn't done it for you.

There are some absolute nutcrackers who identify as trans.

Are we to ignore them? On what basis? Offending transwomen who aren't???

It's NAMALT all over again.

So bloody transparent.

And yes, the OP had it suggested to her to start this thread.

Maryz · 29/12/2017 09:58

No, 1DAD2KIDS, there are plenty of threads discussing the wider issue. That particular article is from February, but he is still very much in the news, for example this from last month which refers to his name change.

I think the op wanted to know whether, in this specific case, people would suspend disbelief and agree that someone like IH could be seen as a woman if they (a) change their name and (b) say they are a woman (he hasn't done this publicly yet, but I bet by this time next year he will have).

It seems looking at JAPAB and others that the answer is yes.

And if the answer is no to IH, then why are other men seen as women because they change name/say they are?

It's the logic behind the thinking that is puzzling.

chandlersfraud · 29/12/2017 10:00

It's very telling that what @Lovesagin said wasn't instantly recognisable as sarcastic, because unbelievably that is what some transactivists would say and what we seem to be sleepwalking into being the main stream/cool/liberal/pc view on these things!

"You're an utter transphobe op. A man says they are a woman that's it, we all have to believe it and it's literal violence to say otherwise and violates his human rights and feelings.

And yes it will work like that when the new dawn is ushered in."

Datun · 29/12/2017 10:05

It's because anyone who agrees that Ian Huntley is a woman, purely on his say so, is clearly an idiot.

In which case, what makes him different to anyone else who claims they are woman when they are a man?

Can it possibly be that no one really believes men are women? They just agree because it doesn't effect them. Until they are forced to concede that women might have the teeniest point?