Only 41% want to brexit now, time to vote again asap

[Idreamofalandrover]

www.google.co.uk/amp/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1EA0Q6

Biggest swing towards remain now people are smelling the coffee

computer

You have not been expecting me

You know you make me laugh

Haven't seen you for a little while ...have you recovered from the Christmas party

You are right @jacqueshammer

Should it matter that I'm typing this with a Y chromosome?

Does it show?

Is my opinion any less valid?

We're talking about the EU, which I imagine is open to everyone.

@GardenGeek Because even if the NI/IE border issue wasn't as historically loaded and fraught with such serious ramifications; other parts of the UK would also want a slice of the pie; Scotland, Wales, I recall even Sadiq Khan mentioning London would all seek preferential treatment. And no-one wants to carve up the UK.

You can't leave the single market and customs union then freely access it because then there'd be no point in leaving the EU. And the EU certainly won't carve up its 4 key principles to accommodate the UK.

So all this talk of striking new trade deals in far flung places would still require the the EU's stamp of approval. In a rather ironic twist of fate (arguable because I was banging on about this during the referendum campaign) we'll essentially end up with less sovereignty than we started with.

Garden, you might think that, but neither of those solutions are workable.

To say that there should be a border between Ireland and the EU is just none of our business. We would be effectively saying that Ireland should leave the EU and forego the benefits of being in the single market just because that's what we've decided we want to do. It would completely undermine what the EU is all about. Never going to happen.

A border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK would be possible in theory, were it not for the DUP insisting that Northern Ireland cannot be treated differently from the rest of the UK, and the Government depending on the DUP's support to get crucial votes through parliament.

But even if the DUP propping up the Tory government weren't an immediate obstacle, it's still a really really bad idea. The Northern Ireland issue is, and always has been, hugely sensitive. Putting a border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK would fundamentally undermine the structural integrity of the UK. Some people say it would be the first step on the way to a united Ireland, but I'm not so sure. Just over half the people in Northern Ireland identify as British and will fight hard to remain so. By putting up a border between us and them we would effectively be saying, "hey you know what, we created you, we're the source of all the troubles you've had on your island, but now we think you're too much hassle so we're casting you loose". Then on the other side, there's a large minority which identifies as Irish and would like to rejoin the republic, but there's no real evidence that the republic actually wants them. In short, putting up a border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK would run a huge risk of really really really fucking up Northern Ireland.

This is the part which amazes me most about Brexit, actually.

I can understand ordinary voters who live in England, Scotland or Wales not knowing or caring much about the history of Northern Ireland and why returning to a hard border would be a really really shit idea. I can also understand why ordinary voters might not understand why you can't have a hard border between Ireland and the EU, or why you can't NOT have a border between Ireland and Northern Ireland without having to follow the same trade and regulatory rules.

What I can't understand is how the government missed this. I mean, seriously. Did they just forget that we share a land border with the EU? Or did they not realise the significance of that? Or did they realise it but not really care?

Because whatever the reason is, it's incredibly damning. It truly frightens me that these people are in charge.

@Rufustherenegadereindeer1

I'm still ill. Hope you are well at least.

I would prefer if you laughed with me, rather than at me, with your cutting put downs. (That Walrus comparison hurt me)

I must go now as I was supposed to have started work.

Also, @JaquesHammer has spotted my Y Chromosome, which I tried to cover up under some flowery prose.

Anyway - I have to go to bed now, but I hope that answers some of your questions!

It's why as far as I can see, the only two outcomes to this are (a) a Brexit that doesn't really mean Brexit, or (b) civil war. And no, that's not "Project Fear" talking. It's reality.

Does it show?

Yep. I've worked in a couple of male-centric industries. There's a very obvious writing style.

Is my opinion any less valid?

Um. Who suggested that? A PP called you "she", I was commenting

I dont remember the walrus comparison

What on earth did i say?

Yeah go do some work...im supposed to be reading!

Hope you are better for Christmas

If something is imported from America to the UK or Ireland or anywhere else in the EU it is imported on exactly the same terms so once it's inside the EU's borders it can move freely around. That is what the EU is about.

Once we've left the EU that can only continue if we agree to only trade with third countries on the same terms the EU does, otherwise goods can't move freely from the UK to the EU or vice versa, hence why you'd need the border and customs checks in Ireland.

Saying "they can have a border like the rest of us" betrays a complete lack of understanding of the unique history of Northern Ireland and the bloodshed and violence that people lived through and why returning to the bad old days of a hard border is really not a good idea.

I just love the racist tag that is slapped in people who voted leave. People who want to stay in the EU are basically saying largely white people from the same continent as the UK should be favoured immigrants over someone from Africa or Asia. Personally I would like to see everyone wishing to migrate to the UK treated equally and fairly rather than prioritising Europeans.

@Rufustherenegadereindeer1

Ah I remember, now. It wasn't Walrus

You called me a Sea Lion. I clicked on the link, and was mortified to see a ghastly cartoon character that was almost certainly based on me.

I am sorry but I just don't buy it. Mainly because they are already doing it

This is because currently we are all in the EU. This is one of the major advantages of being in the EU; frictionless trade, no 'borders'.

There must be a customs system to receive items from America in NI/ Ire; and if there isn't then well we obviously didn't need one.

You're right we didn't need one and we are already doing it because we are currently members of the European Union.

If you imagine after this we are America. Its no different. You can pretend its different but its not, they both leave on a plane or boat and arrive on a plane or boat.

This is neither here nor there. They could arrive on a camel's back from Timbuktu for all it matters. The key issue is EU standards/regulation; EU standards apply to all its members. So if the goods arrived in say the Netherlands, they could freely be moved around the EU because they are compliant with EU regulation.
When we leave, in order to still have trade with the EU we will still need to adhere to their rules and standards.

If NI don't want to be treated differently then they can have a border like all the rest of us.

Two issues here, if you put up a border between NI and Ireland you're essentially inviting the destabilisation of Ireland (and that's putting it mildly). Secondly; I'm not sure who you're referencing with regard to 'a border like the rest of us' but within the single market goods and people (among other things) move freely i.e. the only border is the 'external EU border' this shouldn't be conflated with geographical borders; of course France borders Belgium etc etc.

I bet i didnt call you a sealion as well

I dont think ive called anyone a sea lion

Oh and i dont link (well rarely)

So not me

GardenGeek, that is basically what a hard border is.

@GardenGeek Out of interest during the referendum campaign(s) what swayed you to vote leave? What was your biggest influence in voting the way you did?

there are systems already in place to deal with non-EU imports.

These are known as hard borders. Actual physical infrastructure.

What was your main reason to vote remain vladimir?

Basically everything I've posted on this thread.

Sorry vlad I have told you I don't believe that. I don't believe there are no non-EU goods which enter NI/ire and as I have explained - there is no actual difference.

No-one has said that no non-EU goods enter NI/IE.

You can of course choose to decide that there isn't a difference. I'm sure there are many EU (trade) lawyers, civil servants, lobbyists, civil society groups, businesses and border officials that see the difference - in fact base their entire careers on there being a difference but hey-ho.

I've learned a lot from this thread; I've come across many leavers that shared exactly your views. It's been interesting discussing this with you .

Hard Brexit is pretty much off the table now thanks to last weeks negotiations about Ireland. We will have to end up with a Norway or Switzerland style deal now, so will “leave” but remain aligned to EU regulations. Ironic how much sovereignty we will loose but looks like leavers don’t really care too hoots about sovereignty after all. What a bloody waste of time and money.

looks like leavers don’t really care too hoots about sovereignty after all

Once again, a massive generalisation made about 17 million people, 99.99% of whom you have never met.

We hear this insulting crap over and over again.

Last time I listened to a BBC radio 'comedy' show, the host started off the six minute monologue with the statement: "Why are we having a referendum? I know sod all about the EU!"

Which is fair enough and a commendably honest statement to make.

Sadly, they then did an entire 6 minute monologue consisting of jokes based on the logic that all Leave voters are racist.

That show was called Newsjack, on BBC Radio 4.

What shocked me was the combination of sheer stupidity and conceit. They admit they know nothing (which is not a crime) but still feel entitled to libel people who aren't voting the way they perceive to be fashionable. Which is pretty despicable.