.. or does this Islamic thinking on alcohol seem pointless?

[DefinitelyMaybePossibly]

A group of us from work went out for lunch today. One of our group asked if we were drinking alcohol, because if we were, our Muslim colleague couldn't come. It wasn't an issue because none of us were. Since we went to a restaurant where all customers, even if in separate groups sit around the same long tables, other customers on our table were consuming alcohol. AIBU to think it's a bit pointless theologically to make a point of only coming if your group don't drink alcohol when others sitting as close or even closer are drinking?

I have been out with other muslim friends and alcohol consumption hasn't been an issue. So perhaps someone with an Islamic background can explain the theological thinking here.

Like a previous poster I don't know any Muslims so I can't comment on that. But I know plenty of Christians who would refuse to go to lunch if others were drinking alcohol, or even to go to a licensed restaurant. And yes, they rarely eat out, because these days most restaurants are licensed. I've worked with a Christian who wouldn't even hand deliver a letter to the business next door, because next door was a pub. And I've attended many tee-total weddings, including one where the bride and groom had paid a fortune to the hotel to have them close the bar for the day.

I know lots of Muslims because DH is Algerian (he is an atheist). I have met all sorts of attitudes.

Some of them will not sit at a table if someone is drinking alcohol or eating non-halal meat.
Some of them will not eat food I have prepared because I am "an infidel" so I am unclean and any food touched by me is "haram".
Others have no problem whatsoever.

When we go to Algeria we are usually asked by the younger generation to smuggle alcohol and pork-based goods

The guy at our local Indian would always share a drink with us after our meal. Even on Ramadan 😲 I asked him about it - he just shrugged and laughed! That is because Islam is like any other religeon. You'll get some folk who are devout church goers and play by the "rules" and others like myself who are Catholic but don't go to church or really anything much else - still consider myself a Catholic though.

I have Christian relatives who won't eat with non-Christians so therefore never go to work functions etc. This sort of thing happens in pretty much every religion.

I dont think its really up to one person to dictate to a group of co workers how they celebrate thier own traditions especially when that person doesnt actually celebrate that tradition.
As op said the way the place they are goung is not intimate it's long tables so the person in question could end up sitting next to a stranger who was drinking. Where does it stop?

Why should the whole group not enjoy a glass of wine with thier xmas dinner its a once a year special time?

What if someone orders pork (i would over turkey)? Are they all briefed that its not allowed?

There should be give and take on both sides. If anyone with any religious views joins a group celebrating thier own traditions they should accept what those traditions are or not go. You cannot impose your religious beliefs on others whith different beliefs or no religious beliefs at all.

Whole decades of celebrations at work should not be changed for one person. That karting day is ridiculous. Its once a year if you are the only one who is complaining about something because it doesnt suit your personal interpretation of your religious beliefs then dont go.

These isolated incidences do more harm than good and i am sure the majority of muslins at work would not expect the whole workplace to change to suit them.

Was this same scenario and question not posted in near identical format a while back?

Yes, I remember it from last year.

Exactly the same 'shy' Muslim woman, with someone else asking on her behalf.

An old work mate of mine who happened to be Muslim smokes and drinks! She even called her dad one day to collect her from work and said dad don’t forget to bring me 20 fags and he did! Another Muslim friend part of a group of mates used to go out clubbing, smoking and drinking! Not all Muslims refrain from alcohol!

Should be very obvious that followers of any religion - or ethical belief like veganism - vary hugely in their strictness and tolerance to others

Our team at work had a very enjoyable Christmas do last night.
Our Muslim colleague happily drank alcohol-free beer and ate vegetarian
He also eats food cooked in wine, because he says the alcohol is burned off during cooking

He observes Rammadan fasting, so we don't schedule group events during those - easy.
None of us ever have more than 1-2 glasses, but that's from our own preference - I rarely have any.

The vegetarian colleague also wasn't bothered that his neighbours were eating huge slabs of meat .

Noone in our team cares who does what wrt food & drink.

I have had Muslim co workers who don't come to Xmas partyies because alcohol is being consumed but they just take themselves out of it, they don't expect other people to abstain

I remember last year, there was a thread asking for suggestions on what to get a 5 year old for Christmas.

Every. Fucking. Year. People.

The Christmas 'do' organiser at work is Muslim! She organises the meal, alcohol on the table and collects the money.

I don't think there would be a proper 'do' without her!

The first time I went out with my Muslim boss, he was waving a sausage roll around in one hand and a glass of red in the other.

I've also come across Muslim men who won't set foot in a pub Muslim women who sit in the back seat of the car when their husband is driving.

Religious observance is a massive spectrum and every single person will do it differently!

The thing is muslims get it in the neck for not trying to integrate/being involved (many threads on here) but then why they try and find away to participate (attending works meal where people aren't drinking-rather than just opting out, asking beforehand-so there isn't an uncomfortable moment when everyone is sitting down already and not deciding to dictate a ban on others) it is still an issue.

if we were drinking alcohol, because if we were, our Muslim colleague couldn't come

Wouldn't come, not couldn't come. Everyone picks and chooses what they want from their religion, and that is fine, but it is a choice and its important to say so.

littleducks how is attending a work meal only if people are not drinking "integrating"? Are alcohol-free work meals frowned upon in Islam?

Those who want a drink have one and don’t put pressure on others to do so; and those who don’t, don’t, and don’t put pressure on others not to. Anyone who can’t accept that stays away. It’s not rocket science.

A colleague of mine who worked in Saudi long enough to be invited into the homes of the Saudis he worked with told me that the sign of being Somebody who had Arrived is a well-stocked drinks cupboard!

Interesting thread.

Personally I don't like mixing with people using recreational drugs. I don't go out socialising with people when that's what they want to do. Sometimes when going out with friends we go to places where others are using though. I don't think that makes me a hypocrite.

I'd feel the same if pot, ecstacy etc were legalised so its not about the law.

I think everyone has different standards they are comfortable with. So what? I have friends (admittedly really boring ones) who don't drink who won't allow alcohol in their house and won't socialise where there is alcohol. They aren't of any religious background and they aren't as far as I know recovering addicts. Their choice though, no big deal. I don't change what I do for them, but I wouldn't be offended if they didn't want to do something just because there was alcohol there.

I'm Jewish and don't make a big deal of kashrut (keeping kosher). But I have friends who do and equally won't even step foot in a non-kosher restaurant, even if they weren't eating anything. Sometimes it has to do with the heat they would get if someone in their community walked by and saw them in there (because they would assume they were eating, drinking, etc.). Sometimes it's just a personal choice because they find it too tempting. Sometimes it's just because they're a bit OCD about everything. But that's their choice and it's fine with me. I still eat (and drink) where I like. I don't think it's unreasonable of them, even if I wouldn't do it myself.

mindutopia The point is: that many Jewish people will join their colleagues at a non-kosher restaurant provided there is a vegetarian or fish-based alternative. But they won’t expect others not to eat meat, will they?

I have a few Muslim friends and all of their attitudes towards alcohol are slightly different. 1, Turkish Muslim actually drinks, 1 Pakistan heritage will come to pubs etc with us but won't drink herself and won't have alcohol in her home, another Lebanese muslim is happy to be around people drinking in restaurants but wouldn't go to a bar or pub. Everyone is as different as everyone else. I suppose the same as Christians some are very religious and others are culturally religious.

Just like all people some Muslims are nobs. Worked with plenty who have had no problem with other people doing their own thing. Worked with one who was a dickhead and tried to get it banned for any work trip to include alcohol and also for any employees to drink alcohol in a social situation at all because to do so was discriminatory against Muslims and excluded them if they objected to being in an 'alcohol environment'. So banning a pint after work with your mate or a bottle of wine around her house. She obviously had huge control issues and was getting a kick out of spoiling other people's fun and was told to fuck off to the far side of fuck by management.

I think that was less to do with her being a Muslim than just generally being a nasty person.

She wanted to stop the people she worked with drinking in their own homes?

Even the Prohibitionists in the USA did not try that one.

Oh to have been a fly on the wall when she was told to fuck off!

It's not an issue here in Australia - I think some bigots like to pretend it is. Even if they don't drink personally, they don't opt out of social functions.

A colleague of mine who is Muslim was one of the most enthusiastic participants at our staff Christmas party. I recall her handing around a bottle of wine and necking it straight out of the bottle on the bus trip.

You wouldn't assume that a Christian will never have sex before marriage, and you shouldn't assume a Muslim is against alcohol. Everyone is different, and everyone's interpretation of their religion is different.

Even the Prohibitionists in the USA did not try that one

Yes they did. All alcohol was illegal and the government went so far as to poison industrial alcohol (which was regularly stolen by bootleggers to sell for home use) which killed as many as 10,000 people.

I disagree buns

If you tell people you're not coming if people are drinking then I think you're putting people under pressure to not drink so you come and don't feel ostracised.

I say this as someone who doesn't drink (because I hate the taste of alcohol) and would never dream of enforcing my way on others