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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

.. or does this Islamic thinking on alcohol seem pointless?

211 replies

DefinitelyMaybePossibly · 13/12/2017 22:57

A group of us from work went out for lunch today. One of our group asked if we were drinking alcohol, because if we were, our Muslim colleague couldn't come. It wasn't an issue because none of us were. Since we went to a restaurant where all customers, even if in separate groups sit around the same long tables, other customers on our table were consuming alcohol. AIBU to think it's a bit pointless theologically to make a point of only coming if your group don't drink alcohol when others sitting as close or even closer are drinking?

I have been out with other muslim friends and alcohol consumption hasn't been an issue. So perhaps someone with an Islamic background can explain the theological thinking here.

OP posts:
Red2017 · 14/12/2017 00:08

pisacake

Basically the Qur'an is very clear in what we can and can't do .. we can't have anything that intoxicates us .. can't eat pork .. can only have halal etc but then it's up to the individual to follow it or not.. some follow some rules and don't follow others so it can be confusing for people that don't follow the religion or know little about it... the best way to know about the religion is reading about it and not looking at he followers

Hope that cleared it up Smile

usernameinfinito · 14/12/2017 00:08

The most annoying preachy people I have had to suffer during work xmas meals were the vegans. Apologies to any vegan here.

manicinsomniac · 14/12/2017 00:12

Yes worra , I was quite pissed off with him for a while and he knew that. But I get it now. No, he doesn't have the 'right' to dictate how other people live and he 'shouldn't' expect his experiences to colour other people's choices and reactions. But, if your overwhelming experience of something is very negative, then it's going to cause strong reactions in you. And, if everyone who follows your faith and lives like you agrees with you, then coming across from the same faith who does what you have always known to be 'wrong' is a shock. And it is going to cause concern and probably judgement. It's not right but it's understandable.

I suppose, to him, it would be similar to a more liberal, western Christian (or in fact someone of any or no faith) seeing a picture of someone shooting up on facebook. They might well judge and treat the friend negatively. They shouldn't of course but it would an instinctive revulsion to the behaviour.
(I know that's illegal so not the same but I don't think most people's primary hatred of drugs is based on their illegality)

DiegoMadonna · 14/12/2017 00:18

manicinsomniac I think it's nice that you're trying to see things from another person's perspective. But I don't think any Brazilian is unaware of the fact that most of the population drink socially, including at weddings. He wasn't upset at you because of his childhood experiences and surroundings, he was upset at you because he's been brainwashed by evangelicals.

So I don't think you're wrong to sympathise with him and acknowledge that his feelings are influenced by certain external factors, I just think you've misidentified those factors.

manicinsomniac · 14/12/2017 00:29

Diego - yes, I agree that he knows most of the population drink. And that his viewpoint is one that he has because it is the view of the evangelical church. They believe that, even if the Bible does not ban drinking itself, being teetotal makes it easier for them to stand apart from 'the world', follow God's will for their lives and be available to help others without feeling hypocritical. They think evangelicos joining in with social drinking muddies the waters. Idk if I think that's brainwashing or not, really. I think it makes sense in that society.

This was also about 15 years ago now - things seem to have loosened up a bit, even within the evangelical churches?

Battleax · 14/12/2017 00:31

What are you hoping to get from this thread OP?

DiegoMadonna · 14/12/2017 00:35

things seem to have loosened up a bit, even within the evangelical churches?

I'm afraid I wouldn't be so sure about that! Confused

Original poster
DefinitelyMaybePossibly · 14/12/2017 00:36

Thank you to pisacake for the link.
From this it would appear any Muslim shouldn't enter a licensed premises, but I guess it comes down to each individuals interpretation, hence all the comments on some muslims drinking etc.

For those of you who asked, the colleague asked on behalf of our Muslim one because she's very shy and was just not going to come, not because the non Muslim one was making assumptions.

It just seemed pointless to me that you would come to the restaurant if the people you were with didn't drink even though you could sit next to someone who could have been.

To the other comments about imposing your views on others, this wasn't the case here, our Muslim colleague would Just not have come, but she perhaps did make the assumption that because it sold alcohol we would automatically consume. We are an ethnically mixed bunch, and she isn't the only Muslim.

I do think it is right that as a work group you take in to account other people's views. I know for a fact if we had gone to a strip club some people wouldn't be happy. Perhaps I should now pose a hypothetical situation....
AIBU to think it pointless that my female colleagues will only come for lunch in a strip club if we all agree not to buy a lap dance.

OP posts:
Original poster
DefinitelyMaybePossibly · 14/12/2017 00:44

That other mumsnetters agree with me that it's pointless to be a Muslim to only come to a venue serving alcohol if the group you are with isn't drinking if other people in the venue are drinking anyway. You either don't want to be around it full stop or it doesn't matter to you.

OP posts:
Original poster
DefinitelyMaybePossibly · 14/12/2017 00:45

Reply to Battleax above

OP posts:
Battleax · 14/12/2017 00:50

That other mumsnetters agree with me that it's pointless to be a Muslim to only come to a venue serving alcohol if the group you are with isn't drinking if other people in the venue are drinking anyway. You either don't want to be around it full stop or it doesn't matter to you.

Why do you need other MNers to agree with you that your colleague is "Musliming" wrong? Confused

Haven't you ever met anyone with a religion before? Negotiating the boundaries of their own observance is quite normal. Your opinion is neither here nor there. It's his faith Grin

VladmirsPoutine · 14/12/2017 00:59

So perhaps someone with an Islamic background can explain the theological thinking here.

The faux derision and questioning; contempt dressed up as curiosity. Odd how people can use their autonomy and self-determination to make personal decisions isn't it? ALL MUSLIMS SHOULD STICK TO THE SAME RULES. Perhaps they should all go back to Islamustan where the rules are so clear cut and they will no longer confuse your delicate brain?

pisacake · 14/12/2017 01:11

"From this it would appear any Muslim shouldn't enter a licensed premises, "

Um, not really. I mean despite what the absolutists say, religion is expressed through people more than in words.

You can't really say what any given Muslim should do as an absolute, because religious rules are never really 100% adhered to by anybody, and even those rules are often a matter of interpretation. I mean it's not really anybody's business but theirs.

All we can say is yes, it's a religious thing that some Muslims don't want to drink, and yes, it's a religious thing that some Muslims don't want to be around alcohol.

BoomBoomsCousin · 14/12/2017 01:16

I don't think this is Islamic thinking particularly. When I was young and involved in Methodist youth groups we were told it would be a good idea to not mix people who were drinking. Methodists are fairly live and let live though and it wasn't pushed. But some friends from more evangelical Christian groups, especially house churches, would never have entered a pub or gone to a party or gathering where there was alcohol and they looked down on those of us who did.

PinkJeggings · 14/12/2017 01:27

I agree; the office Christmas party this year was go karting (!) as there was one person who would not attend a restaurant or bar because she did not agree with people drinking.

MorningstarMoon · 14/12/2017 01:30

I've never known this before. I have many Muslim friends and they come out even when the group is drinking.

OldPony · 14/12/2017 01:47

Why the offence to the OP?
Blimey, why on earth should she know jack shit about the different varieties of any religion?
I thought she was asking a normal question. No need to jump down her throat.

buttercupmeadow · 14/12/2017 02:23

Yeah, why all the touchiness. Some people are so damn prickly and uptight.

Menarefrommarsitwouldseem · 14/12/2017 02:24

I had a very good friend of mine turn down an invite to my 30th as there would be alcohol served. She is Muslim

However, on the flipside one of my closest male friends is Muslim and he props up the bar better than I can and we always share a Jack Daniels or 5.
I find it more unusual in this day in age when someone following Islam doesn't drink. However, I've noticed they tend to like to keep it from other Muslims.

Just my observations.

Autisticappropriation · 14/12/2017 02:34

Was this same scenario and question not posted in near identical format a while back?

Leonard1 · 14/12/2017 03:49

In Islam substances which “veil the mind” are forbidden to the Muslim person. However how this is played out in practise varies. culture and individual choice influences how Islam is practised. Same applies to other religions. I am not Muslim but have studied Islam and lived in a Muslim country. Any Muslim can express their wishes about preferring no alcohol to be served but if others want to drink then their wishes need to be considered too in the context of UK culture at Christmas where this is the norm. Perhaps the Muslim person would prefer to go somewhere else for lunch with those who don’t drink as an alternative or suggest they sit together with those not drinking down one end of the table or at another table with them at the same event. This would meet everyone’s requirements.

Tapandgo · 14/12/2017 05:50

Thank goodness we live in a country where you can choose what religion you follow, if any. You can choose to drink or not. You can celebrate Christmas, or not and where people of various religions, or none, can choose to socialise together if they want. Perish the thought we lived in a place dominated by one religious group or another that had the power to control your behaviour and path through life because of their religious fundamentalism.

(Slightly off the point, but amusing at the time........I was at a Muslim wedding with my family where the only drink available was Irn Bru. Curious, because where I come from, Irn Bru is drunk as a hangover cure !)

HolidayHelpPlease · 14/12/2017 06:17

This is a something I don’t understand (although I’ve had the conversation at least once a year, first with a teetotaller, then a Baptist Christian, then a Muslim) - why, if you don’t drink, can’t you go to pub?
I get it if you’re an alcoholic or have substance issues but if you just don’t drink, why is it an problem? No pub on Earth is going to sneakily Chuck a free shot of vodka in your orange juice.

Argeles · 14/12/2017 06:36

I have Muslims in my family, and Muslim friends, and their attitudes towards alcohol vary greatly.

Most that I know wouldn’t drink alcohol, but would sit with others who were, so long as it was accompanying meals, and not in copious amounts either.

Some would make excuses not to attend the function if they knew alcohol was being served, or ask if it could be changed to an alcohol-free venue. Others I know sell alcohol as part of their business, but don’t drink it themselves, whilst others enjoy a drink or two in private, but hide it from their family and community.

I’ve known some in the past who would go clubbing and take recreational drugs, but would refuse to drink alcohol (I’ve never understood this!).

I guess the opinions vary greatly from Muslim to Muslim, but I do believe from experience, that there is a monumental amount of pressure and worry for many that they must be seen to be conforming within their religion and community. Sometimes this is self inflicted, and other times it isn’t - just another variation.

I know Muslims who pray 5 times per day, those who only pray on Fridays, and those who last prayed on Eid.

Lethaldrizzle · 14/12/2017 07:38

I think any religious text listing rules about how to live ones life is a bit pointless -but I realise it makes many people happy

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