To have thought we were well past calling gender dysmorohia a "mental illness"

[mostlikelyanunpopularviewpoint]

Just that really.

My male friend (who is quite young, early twenties) has recently confided in me that he is transgender and wishes to transition into presenting as female. As my friend still refers to himself as 'he' as he is not openly transgender, I shall refer to my friend as 'he' in this post to keep things simple.

What worries me is that he is feeling suicidal, has no support apart from my friend group and is generally in a need of a lot of help right now. Hence I feel annoyed at what happened.

One of our mutual friends who my friend has also told turned around and said to me, "he needs help, it's just a mental illness and he can recover from it and live a normal life."

AIBU to be unhappy at this statement and to think that although obviously this is a very controversial subject, with many different opinions on how integrate trans rights without compromising the rights of biological woman, in this day and age it is not acceptable to refer to someone who identifies as transgender as "mentally ill?"

Also would like to add that this thread is not to debate the rights of transgender people vs woman. I believe there are several threads like for this discussion at the moment, hence my AIBU pertains literally to the fact that I find it unacceptable to call being transgender "a mental illness" which implies it is temporary and is something a person can recover from!

I honestly thought this was discriminatory and that most people do NOT see being transgender as a mental illness?

domani re not hauling things into headlights I was talking about sexual fetishes. Fetishes are usually a private thing...

Well I mean it depends. It may actually be the case that his other mental health issues are manifesting as dysmorphia notvthe other way around. It is fairly common. At any rate it would be a very bad idea to transition before sorting out his other mental health issues.

datun I was more specific in an earlier post, but it isn't so much that they aren't being addressed it is more that the baby is being thrown out with the bathwater. Many things said come across as bigoted and narrow minded and it means real specific issues are side lined because of the fury about the armchair diagnoses and labelling.

You see, I predict you will come back and argue about exactly what i have said, the exact words, and try to prove that there is bigotry, no narrowmindedness, and issues aren't being sidelined. Or say I am not detailed enough, you want exact details of issues and how they aren't being addressed. Or you will ask for proof or statistics or links.

And if you do... than that is exactly what I am talking about.

then not than

Haha! I’ll get me coat then!

santaiscoming2017

I think, what you’re saying is that talking about the fetish side of it is damaging?

And we should be able to talk about the entire issue in a more neutral way?

I agree, it’s always best to try and be neutral. One of the problems is that a lot of the women here have had ongoing interactions with the very transactivists pushing the agenda.

Dealing with the worst of these people is infuriating, depressing and frightening.

The rank misogyny and violent intentions are not to be repudiated with neutrality.

Most of the women on here go out of their way to make a distinction between genuine transsexuals, AGP individuals and transactivists.

You can almost take it as read that genuine transsexuals, who are largely supportive of women, are not the subject of, or at the centre of, any discourse.

No that isn't what I was saying at all.

And I have to go now!

Super quickly and excuse any typos, but what you said in your post were the case it would be a huge step forward (in my opinion). That may be the intention, but I am not sure that how you describes it reflects the majority of the spartacus posts on mumsnet. Anyway, sorry, I won't be able to answer, or explain, for hours now, and I hope no offence caused by my posts.

I'd say it is a mental illness. If you're a man you're not a woman no more than you're a cat or a dog. IMHO. It's all rubbish to say you were born in the wrong body. It's all in the mind so it's a mental thing.

I don't think you understand what a mental illness is exactly

I don't think you understand much about gender dysphoria.

mostlikelyanunpopularviewpoint

You're pushing an elephant up the stairs starting a supportive thread about transgender people here.

Your friend would do well to get a referral to Nottingham, they have a fantastic reputation. There's a lot of help and support out there just not so much on mumsnet.

Yes it is a mental illness. Much like wanting to cut your left leg off because it makes you ugly is one.

Depression is a mental illness which has no cure. In fact, the very vast majority are not “curable”, merely manageable with the correct treatment.

If people don't like to use mental illness then it's a mental disorder. You are perceiving that you are something you are not.

What I cannot grasp is if I say I am God because my brain tells me so then I am psychotic.

If a man claims he is s woman then he is and we all have to accept it.

Look at it this way, how many "mistakes" do you think nature makes? How many times have you seen an animal of any other species, act like it was the opposite sex? A lion that thinks it's a lioness and hunts with the others, looks after the cubs and tries to feed them, etc? A female gorilla that thinks it's a male silverback? It just rarely, I mean seriously rarely happens. So it seems very clear that nature doesn't make these mistakes, society does by trying to pigeon hole us and make us conform to gender stereotypes, a society that over sexualises and oppresses women - it's so unhealthy and this is a symptom of the wider problem in my opinion.

Is there any other single condition where a person wanting to have healthy bits of their body cut off and/or maimed would NOT be considered a mental illness?

Anyway, sorry, I won't be able to answer, or explain, for hours now, and I hope no offence caused by my posts.

Certainly none taken by me! I think we are more or less on the same page, with a few caveats on your side. Although I can’t say that with full certainty, because I’m not exactly sure what it is you’re saying!

Maybe when you have time you can clarify. It’s always good to talk these things through. We might well end up disagreeing, but that’s fine.

Datun has already mentioned comorbidities, but - as an autistic person who wasn't diagnosed as such until just shy of my thirtieth birthday -autism comorbidity is a particular hobby horse of mine. It's particularly salient as autistic people will commonly feel that something about them isn't "right" and in particular circumstances they could come to believe that it is their sex, without them actually being trans.

I also have experience of having a particular (physical) condition and then having all subsequent unrelated issues being "because of x". Imagine like how overweight people are told to lose weight with any health problem they present to a GP. So my main advice to your friend would be to investigate other things (for instance if they believe there is a possibility they are autistic, or even just to mention their depression) before mentioning the transgenderism. As once it's on the record, everything will be blamed on it and won't be investigated.

In relation to the myth, the same people who say "there is no difference between men and women's brains" say in the same breath "men are statistically more likely to be violent".

Well they are statistically more likely to be violent. There's no getting away from that fact. It's not because of their brains, it's because they are raised in a patriarchal society.

the same people who say "there is no difference between men and women's brains" say in the same breath "men are statistically more likely to be violent"

these two facts do not contradict each other in any way. One is about the physical structure of the brain, one is about how people behave.

Why would you think there is any problem with saying both statements?

Yes it is a mental illness. That does not make it any less real. I also do not think its ever a good idea to tell anyone their illness is 'all in their head'. Horrid turn of phrase when talking about matters that cause distress.

the same people who say "there is no difference between men and women's brains" say in the same breath "men are statistically more likely to be violent"

No that’s not what people are saying. They are saying the idea of an identifiably male or female brain is untrue.

In relation to the myth, the same people who say "there is no difference between men and women's brains" say in the same breath "men are statistically more likely to be violent".

Male people are statistically likely to be more violent. Mix of socialization and testosterone. Nothing to do with brains. Male and female brains do not exist.

I would say socialization matters more than testosterone though, given transwomen retain male pattern violence even after hormone therapy.

Testosterone must play some small part though, given transmen become more violent when they start on T

It's clearly not what they're saying, because every single neuron in that brain has a nucleus in it that will contain either XX or XY chromosomes.

What they mean is, if given two brains, a neuroscientist can make at best an educated guess on appearance alone which is male and which is female. Both brains will have features that appear within a normal distribution for both sexes.

I read an article about a woman who believed she was disabled,and managed to persuade the hospital to amputate her leg,she's now in a wheelchair..you couldn't make it up...doctors these days need to realise that just because you can do something,doesn't mean you should