To ask how you justify being with a non-maintenance payer?

[ohreallyohreallyoh]

I realise I will be accused of being goady but that is not my intention. I ask the question in all seriousness. If your partner/brother/son/nephew/friend (and female equivalents, of course) and you are aware that no maintenance is paid towards the upbringing of children, what is it for you that makes that OK?

My ex has moved in (again - 4th time!) with his girlfriend recently and she seems perfectly reasonable and my kids really like her. But the fact remains that as a self employed businessman, he pays no child maintenance whatsoever. It has not been an issue - I earn OK and my children want for nothing, but the bitter taste it leaves and the sense of injustice is difficult to shake. I suspect she doesn’t know, and that he has sold her the ‘perfect father’ vs. ‘crazy ex’ story which she has no reason to question (or chooses not to question).

So, under what circumstances is it reasonable?

Late to the thread and I have only skimmed through it so forgive me if I'm repeating what others have been said.
I think there are a lot of new partners who discourage their partner from seeing their DC's.
I personally have heard new partners speak with utter glee about how they have successfully reduced the amount of maintenance their new oh pays.
It usually goes along the !Ines of why should be pay X amount when the greedy bitch uses the money on herself.
I think there is a belief that single mothers should suffer, that to have a car, buy new clothes, go on holiday is disgusting.
I have never heard the same said about single father's.
Nobody seems to think that they should only buy reduced food in the supermarket, not have a car, not go on holiday etc.
Plenty of people happily live with someone who doesn't see their DC's or pay a decent amount of maintenance.
When my ex and I split the new woman made it plain to the dcs that their father would not be coming to our house again. That the only way to see him is with her present.
She has done a successful job of destroying their relationship and he has been a willing accomplice.

The new woman also questioned my dcs as to how I could afford to take them on holiday and where do I get my money from.
Their father hasn't taken them anywhere since we split.

But why on earth would anyone want to be with a man who they had to shame into paying maintenance? I wouldn't. If he can't do it off his own back he's a lazy twat.

I’ve got a ‘friend’ who gets cross that because her DH pays maintenance to his ex for his DD that her DS can’t go to private school

But why on earth would anyone want to be with a man who they had to shame into paying maintenance? I wouldn't. If he can't do it off his own back he's a lazy twat

Well yeah that's kinda the point of the thread.

If I, as the RP, treated my child the way that NRP treats our child SS would be involved and she'd be taken off me.

It's absolutely and utterly unfair but sadly I don't see what can be done about the "being involved" aspect.

The financial aspect, frankly there's a fucking lot that can be done and it's abhorrent in the uk that more isn't done.

Emilybrontescorsett

That's disgraceful. When my ex got with his new partner, she reduced his 'time' with DD to between 2-3 hours a week. When he was supposed to have overnight access he would say "Oh I'll have to check with xxxx and get her to check our calender. The overnights stopped and he continued with the 2-3 hours once a week, even at that it became a struggle. Low and behold he has since completely abandoned out DD and pays no maintenance. They're just back from New York though, as well as 3 other foreign holidays this year, new cars and their business is thriving. How can these women possibly think this is ok?

I had a friend who’s parents were divorced that used to moan about her dad’s child support and how her mum said it wasn’t enough. I used to bite my tongue that at least she still had two parents to support her.

See I hate this attitude. Should people be grateful that they get so little it makes them impoverished just because they're not getting £0? I'd rather anger was directed at the men who allow this to happen rather than the women who have it 'better' but only by a fraction.

I sometimes think that any parent that doesn’t have adequate life insurance in place should they die is just as bad a separated parents who don’t pay. Effect on the child is the same, if not worse

There's been some bloody weird comparisons on this thread but that one takes the biscuit.

One is (arguable) irresponsible. The other is abandonment

I think there is a belief that single mothers should suffer, that to have a car, buy new clothes, go on holiday is disgusting. I have never heard the same said about single father's

Yep, I think some people won't be happy until single mothers are feeding themselves bread and dripping and living in a cardboard box. Even if they won the lottery this would be expected of them. Therein lies the misogyny

No maintenance, no access. And I'd explain that to the children when they're adults.

If a father wont pay his fair share then he's not a father I'd want for my children anyway.

He would have to drag me through court kicking and screaming, and I'd find out every customer I could that he'd worked for the previous 2 years and get him done for not declaring too.

But why on earth would anyone want to be with a man who they had to shame into paying maintenance? I wouldn't. If he can't do it off his own back he's a lazy twat

I agree, but there's women who go out with convicted rapists and sex offenders, nothing surprises me anymore. I can only assume they are -

1. Naive and believe the lies that have been undoubtedly spun, or they are vulnerable in some way
2. In the dark about it all or only have a few details
3. Don't see not paying maintenance/raping someone/abusing children as a big deal enough to consider it a character flaw
4. They're just horrible people themselves

No one on this thread has said it's the responsibility of women to shame their partner into paying maintenance. I'm an ardent feminist but I do think some people on MN believe no woman can do any wrong, ever, or if she does it's because a man is pulling the strings somehow. But if you are a woman turning a blind eye to your partner to not pay maintenance to his children, I'd seriously question your morals and would say don't be surprised when the time comes for him to screw you over too

Trinitysquirrel_ that won't help though as lots of nrp not only don't support their dc financially, they don't measure up emotionally either.
Lots of nrp do not pull their weight. They are not the ones doing pick up/ drop offs, feeding the DC's, getting up in the night, sorting out childcare etc etc.
So if we did what you suggest the rp is hit twice.

Well Trinity "no maintenance no access" doesn't wash with the court and you'd pretty quickly find yourself on the sharp end of things.

I can only imagine you're not divorced, otherwise you'd know that whilst going through all this shit you also have to bend over backwards to look "reasonable". Even when you're being shit on from every direction.

Yeah that's the other thing.

Being torn between "are you fuck just turning up for the nice bits" and "Christ please take the kids even if only for an hour because I'm on my knees and haven't had a fucking break in three years".

It’s the stupidity of tit that confuses me!

There was a poster a few pages back who said that her ex’s new partner fully approves of him trying to get out of paying maintenance so they can afford a child together.

Soooo - he sees children as completely replaceable and she thinks ttcing with him is a good idea!?!

Seriously - just from a self preservation point of view - why would you do that?

Because you're a fucking idiot

well if you knew the NRP was having sex with his 10 year old daughter would you turn a blind eye to that or consider it none of your business? If they were locking the DC in a cupboard or battering them?

I don't get 'not my business' sorry!

Sometimes it is peer group pressure that keeps people without morals in check and without it they behave despicably as we have seem loads of times in this thread and IRL.

But i can see that many women are with someone like that due to lack of self esteem and out of desperation.I also don't buy that they believe the lies either, they might want to present to believe them but i bet their gut doesn't.

and as for no maintenance no access - well funny how the NRPs who don't pay maintenance are also the ones who arnt allowed to see their kids either (i.e. they are allowed to see them but can't be arsed so blame the ex for not 'allowing it)

That's what gets me angry. The 'she stopped me seeing my daughter' bollocks. Regardless of him not paying maintenance at the time, I'd have done anything for him to agree to spending time with her. She was pining for him, went mute because she couldn't deal with the abandonment. It wasn't about my needs or wants but DD's. She needed him in her life but he refused.
Then he'd be sat down at the pub telling everyone how I 'wouldn't let him'....tosser!!

Of course he did.

Mine does the same.

Mine accused me of blocking contact. Our DD started getting hysterical at contact and refused to get in the car with him. She was 3. Eventually we both sat down with a counsellor and agreed to stop overnights as she was hating it. Instead he was to see her little and often and build it back up. He did fuck all - simply dropped to an afternoon a fortnight and never asked for any more.

Two years later in court it's brought up as an example of my stopping him seeing his DD

It's all suck bullshit.

cancer - no one says it is the responsibility of the NP to shame the partner into paying but when they know their ifestyle, flash cars, holidays and meals out are paid for by him not paying maintenance then they are as guilty as the NRP.

Not paying maintenance is abuse of the children.

People are frightened of being judgmental but I think they should condemn NRPs who fail in their parental duties.

It’s not just the money that puts stress on an RP, it’s dealing with the disappointment of the children when the RP doesn’t show, the exhaustion of never getting any rest etc etc

I have seen bad behaviour on both sides in divorce and I never hold back on my opinions. It’s cost me some friends but I don’t care. And shunning people can bring them to their senses. I have seen more than one selfish git reappraise their behaviour when their entire social circle told them their behaviour was appalling and that no one would speak to them until they stopped. Peer pressure can be very effective.

NewLove I am trying to imagine a marriage ceremony where the wife "covers her backside with a ring" and I want to be one of the witnesses

I thought it was just me read that funny!

"Why do women accept shit men? For the same reasons you did, presumably"

I didn't have any red flags from my ex at all, he and his family always criticised men who didn't support their families following a split.

In my situation I did once bump into my ex-mil at the BANK of all places. Back then you could get 3 months of statements printed with no fuss in branch, so that's what I did. Showed my overdraft, and that I wasn't being extravagant in my expenditure (bills, food, basics...) AND that contrary to what he's still her he had not set up a standing order to my account. I also showed her the texts where he repeatedly cancelled contact - mainly due to being hungover. To be fair she did have a right go at him that weekend which I know as of course I got blamed for "dropping him in it" with his mum. They barely speak these days, he has 5 more children by ow/2nd wife and she does the majority of childcare/housework.

He's not seen dd for several years now, she's lucky if she gets a birthday card. His choice. But in a passive way as dd, wife 2 and I got fed up chasing and nagging him to book leave, book transport, negotiate arrangements just make the bloody effort frankly! Maintenance was not paid at all for first few years, then sporadically, now there's an attachment order for the arrears that have accrued.

As several posters here have said I've met dating wise men who have children by exes, if there's ANY hesitation when discussing if they see their kids, pay maintenance etc I bin them off, not interested. Especially if they start the "crazy ex" crap.

There's a couple of posters here have said the "his ex won't let him see his kids" "he won't pay maintenance because X y z" I call bullshit 95% of the time. Usually in these cases (and there's even been threads "how do I help my boyfriend get access to his kids" - and drip drip - turns out op is new gf he's probably trying to impress, he's not paid maintenance or not regularly/has had to be chased, had made no effort to see DC, eg sought legal advice, suggested mediation etc it's all "too hard" 🙄) the poster only has his word for it, no evidence, no knowledge of what's gone before, no idea of the piss taking the nrp has already done.

And yes again as has been stated women can be just as bad as nrp's. I know of 3 cases where dad has been RP and mum has been absent, obstructive and refused to pay maintenance.

In my ex's 2nd wife's case I believe there's a strong element at this stage of she knows if she left he'd be the same with her. And she'd be in a much worse situation financially than me. She fell pregnant with the 1st while he was still with me (I believe planned on her behalf but then more fool him for not wrapping up!) the rest have been conceived when they were going through rough patches inc him cheating on her.

I've cut out one couple who were friends of mine when I found out that he didn't pay maintenance to his first wife and 2nd wife supported him not to as "why should I be worse off and have fewer children because of what happened before I even met him" bleurgh

Another friend of mine at the beginning of his divorce (she cheated) was gobbing off he wasn't going to pay maintenance as punishment for her cheating. I've known him since he was 10! So we know each other well enough to say it as it is, so gave him a talking to. He fell out with me at first but a week later came back and said sorry and I was right and he'd pay maintenance. But then he'd have felt shitty if he hadn't I think (hope).

Why? Boils down to

A they believe a load of lies the nrp is spinning them

B they don't think he'll ever do it to them as what they have is "different"

C they are nasty pieces themselves and don't give a shit! And I include there the ones like my ex friend who see their partners children as inconvenient, expensive and undeserving. I've been on benefits, studying and working full time at various points since we split - all 3 were used as excuses

Benefits - govt are paying why should I? (And that includes when we first split and at that point maintenance was deducted from benefits, if they paid once any amount benefits assumed they paid full amount regularly).

Studying - well she chose to study and not earn why should I pay for her to chase her dream? - I was studying with the aim of having more employment potential and earning power after following his sorry arse around and mostly having nmw jobs - he was in army

Working full time - well she's earning enough why should I pay? they (dd and I) don't need my money - always an excuse!

D they're weak and needy and don't want to rock the boat

Twoshades - how is irregularity and insecurity of their mothers finances "better for the children"???? How is she supposed to budget? Plan? And I'll bet the amount is nowhere near enough to cover the TRUE costs of raising those children (rent, food, gas, electricity, broadband, school supplies, ALL clothes and shoes, toiletries, otc medicines and first aid supplies, bedding, furniture, tech...) Sounds very shady and irresponsible to me.

It's not about expecting just women to police these arseholes, it's up to society as a whole, it should be socially unacceptable to be a deadbeat ex! And that's top down - if the govt gave the child maintenance dept (whatever the hell they're called) proper teeth to sanction, to deduct from source without a lot of red tape, if tax credit rules weren't only punitive to RP (mainly women) who have more than 2 children, if employers were compelled to give salary info to hmrc, if the loopholes around job hopping and self employed crap was tightened up a lot of this could be avoided.

"This will in the future be showing on their credit reports and will therefore have a much bigger impact on them going forward." Sorry but I think that is pathetic, this has a minimal effect on them, people like this don't give a shit about credit scores. It's nowhere near enough to make them reconsider.

"Going on swanky holidays whilst not contirbuting should be illegal" yes! My ex and his new family go on 3 main holidays a year every year, Florida in the summer and Europe at Easter and Christmas plus long weekends/half term/expensive days out. Also my dd lucky to get a card yet every birthday/Christmas the new kids get the latest tech and piles of other gifts.

"No one has said anything about an ex that refuses to feed his children?" Not paying maintenance IS not paying to feed your DC! They're not paying to feed them so someone else has to or they'd starve! THEY are responsible 50% for THEIR children.

"I have honestly never been in a position where I have asked." Are/have you been with someone who has children from an earlier relationship?

Abilockheart - have you actually BEEN the RP with a deadbeat nrp? It's bloody hard to get them to do anything! I did everything I could but as the law stands you cannot MAKE an nrp see their child, the maintenance people are truly crap, my ex was still in the army I gave them his service number, address (work and home), his parents address, phone numbers, email addresses, bosses name, army pay dept info, all of it, they were useless! Took nearly 3 years to get anything and the first payment was a princely £10 - he was supposed to be paying £350 this was in 2005 he was on a good wage and had virtually no bills/costs. (He didn't move in with now 2nd wife until she was pregnant with their no 2!) it wasn't until I got my MP involved and wrote to the minister in charge of that part of govt that things BEGAN to improve temporarily. Even with an attachment now I am going to be phoning csa tomorrow so they will chase his employer to release the money - I have to do this every month or I wouldn't get the money, and it usually involves more than one call as its not uncommon to be told "we'll send an email and you can call back in 10 working days" I know now - after 15 YEARS of this crap to ask for a manager and keep calling till I get one.

It's not about the new partner should be responsible it's that they should want to be with someone that is decent and treats their children properly. If I were to find myself in a relationship with someone with children from a previous relationship who didn't see them, didn't pay maintenance, didn't care about them - I would think that reflected badly on ME!

That said if new partner is complicit in things which should be illegal if they aren't already (I am no tax lawyer) like putting all his assets in her name, him being self employed and 'employing' her and paying her a high wage, allowing him not to work in order to avoid paying maintenance... Yea I think they should be legally responsible in those situations.

"he was paying almost £200 a month for 2 children" are you serious?! That's fuck all when you consider the costs of TWO children! They also aren't fucking pay-per-view! Separate issues contact and maintenance. How did she "make it difficult for him" and WHY? because I have yet to come across an RP that has wanted to restrict access without damn good reasons. And while I think less of women who stay with deadbeats why should your ex's new partner pay directly for kids that aren't hers? HE should've paid. I'm bewildered by the fact you were a Lp you know how hard it is yet begrudge your own grandchildren their fathers support!

What can't be legislated for is love. We can't make these dicks love their kids, unfortunately and that's the saddest thing of all.

I can't and won't justify it
I don't know how women do it. I'd feel low in myself, letting that kind of man anywhere near me.

Men who don't support their DCs = cheap, with no morals or conscience to me. The women with them are lacking in standards. I guess in that way, they suit

Graphista

Is this at me

I have honestly never been in a position where I have asked." Are/have you been with someone who has children from an earlier relationship

Yes I am. As I have said more than once on this thread. And I have been in a previous relationship.

I can now see this from both points of view sadly. First ex husband didn't pay for 2 years and I had to get a detachment of earnings through the CSA. He was sporadic with contact too.

Second exh was much better on both fronts but a controlling twat and to spite applied for residence whilst I moved and got it so I do, and will continue to pay what is required of me but I am struggling financially to see dd more than once a month now due to the cost of travel (over £100 per month) and the fact that he is difficult when making arrangements - he lives 190 miles away.