To say that the UK is not a Rape Culture?

[PatriarchyPersonified]

So I have had an argument with a lady I work with today that has ended with her calling me the "Patriarchy Personified", hence the name.

She claimed that the UK was a Rape Culture. I completely disagree and it feels like this is more creeping 'third wave' bullshit.

If you look at the definition of Rape Culture which is:

a society or environment whose prevailing social attitudes have the effect of normalizing or trivializing sexual assault and abuse.

Then it's clear that she is wrong. I don't disagree that there are elements of UK society that I would argue probably are characterised in this way, but you can not describe the whole UK in those terms.

She was extremely unhappy to be challenged, I work with her on a weekly basis and I've got a feeling I'm not going to have heard the last of this!

This is just a game to people like the OP. Like 6th form debating society. They don’t care that it is real women’s lives

Assassinated

Haven't we? I'm including myself in that 'we'.

Oops posted too soon. OP your example of someone saying they hate all white peoples demonstrates your lack of knowledge on what racism and consequently sexism really entails.

Your example is one of PREJUDICE. Racism equals prejudice PLUS power. Since there are no structural powers woven into society to disempower white people, those words have little impact unpleasant as they are. There is no power at a fundamental societal level to support them.

So yes, even if someone says they hate you because you are white you are not and never will be a victim of actual racism and would indeed need to actually listen to your ‘black friend’ (or as I like to call them ‘friends’) in order to understand the racist culture they experience.

How many men (and women) idolise Han Solo? Certainly most people in my age group.

Have a look again at the scene where he kisses Leia, the the Empire Strikes Back. She is pushing him away as he roughly pushes her back against the wall. And then, oh, look, she’s loving it really.

Ask most people, and they will immediately describe a romantic scene, often a formative one for many young boys who are now in their forties.

That is one scene, from one film. There are literally thousands and thousands of similar scenes in popular media.

THAT is one small measure of proof that we live in a rape culture.

Don't let's even get started on James Bond...

Absolutely no food for thought here for me - same old same old man thinking debating about rape is a fun game

When the Harvey Weinstein stuff came out, I heard people say that the women went to his room to get ahead with their careers so what happened wasn't assault.
When stories of adult men having sex with underage people are announced, I commonly hear people say that the victim looked 16 or that it was their fault for going to the rapist's house or whatever.
The fact that men like Woody Allen and Roman Polanski are not in jail and able to have successful careers is gobsmacking. (I know they aren't Brits but British people will be contributing to their success.)
I think a culture that excuses sexual assault is a rape culture. I think that a culture that turns a blind eye to sexual assault is a rape culture. I think that a culture who cant deal with men making rape threats to women is a rape culture.

Last post for now I promise. (I'm already late getting out the door)

StreetLife

Racism equals prejudice PLUS power.

Not according to that biased, racist rag 'The Oxford English Dictionary'.

Racism - Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

If we use your definition, it means effectively only white men can be racist or sexist.

How convenient.

Totally agree with your colleague. YABU. From the age of 12 to 23 I was subject to some appalling sexual abuse that no one in authority was particularly fussed about.

No original thoughts from a man like the OP, but they always think they have, and that they are “winning” with their clever little arguments. I’ve heard all this crap before

Yeah, read the shakesville link and educate yourself, OP.

Based on the definition of Rape Culture given in the OP, I'd say that the world is a rape culture, but that the UK is less extremely so than many countries. Sexual assault absolutely is trivialised here, as it is pretty much everywhere.

And saying "Oh but it's much better here than it is in some countries" is just another way of minimising and trivialising the experiences of UK women.

this thread is genuinely interesting. It's certainly given everyone some food for thought.

It really, really hasn’t you know. Women have heard this incorrect nonsense thousands of times.

It’s given you some food for thought thoigh, so that’s good.

I agree you can also argue either way.

It's certainly given everyone some food for thought.

Nope

I’m cringeimg at your basic lack of knowledge.

I think for the reasons listed above, yes it is and it's awful but compared to the rest of the world we are doing quite well.

And my spelling of cringeing. But above is a slide I share with my students as to why The dictionary is not there to define complex social issues. It helps people spell, get a basic grasp of words and changes its definitions annually to encompass academic research and understanding. But you have no intention of learning anything that does not fit into your narrative so while the slide will be totally wasted on you I hope it helps someone else.

All the examples being cited aren't exclusively characteristics of Rape Culture. They are possible symptoms of it. They are also symptoms of lots of other issues

What other issues are they a symptom of?
(Not actually expecting the OP to bother answering this btw)

Also infuriated by the constant repetition of the assertion that it's not rape culture because "innocent till proven guilty" means it's just soooo hard to prove, not that we have a rape culture
Really?
In no other crime is the VICTIM assumed guilty (of provoking the crime, of asking for It, of lying about it etc) and treated accordingly. While the accused is given the benefit of proof needed.
And THAT'S rape culture right there. Rapists know it. Women know it. Why don't YOU know It?

OP I’ve reread all your posts. I’m still not sure what your point is to be honest.

You don’t seem to like the idea of the U.K. being tarred as having a problem with rape and sexual assault but you were unaware of the stats on rape and sexual assault.

Your first definition of Rape culture included sexual assault but on looking at the high stats you decided that sexual assault shouldn’t be included in the definition. You must see that in itself is a minimising action?

You are concerned about the language being used. Discussions about rape aren’t dry academic debates though. You need to be aware that if you are talking about rape or sexual assault that the majority of women you are debating with have probably personal experience of rape or sexual assault. So it’s personal and painful to them. They’ll most likely have been told not to make a fuss, that they were irresponsible in some way, that they will be responsible for ruining the man’s life or that it’s not possible to prosecute.

Ask yourself why you are more outraged at the suggestion that the UK has a serious problem with sexual assault and rape than you are about the actual problem?

And yes, it’s true, you never said rape didn’t exist and you never said it wasn’t wrong but your entire thread is minimising.

You’ve said that the U.K. isn’t as bad as other places.
You’ve said it (only) happens in certain communities.

Ask yourself why your colleague was angry.
Ask yourself why the women on this thread are angry.
Ask yourself why you didn’t know the stats.

Does it have to get worse here before we do something to change our culture?
Or can we get angry now?

You are talking about semantics. The women on this thread are talking about their lives.

There, did I give you some food for thought?

Nope, no food for thought for me either.

Man talks shite to women about female lived experience. Women tell him he's talking shite. Man congratulates himself on giving the wimmenz some food for thought for their ladybrains.

Nothing I haven't seen and read a tediously huge amount of. As offensive as it is dull.

The only thought that occurred to me is that op is a dick

A former (female) colleague described a 14 year old girl that goes to her daughter’s school as a “little Lolita” and basically said she would get what she deserved as she was on an app and being sent dick pics by a 17 year old because she “flaunts herself” and knows what she is doing. Yes, we do have a rape culture in the UK. Where girls/women are routinely blamed for being assaulted because of their dress/behaviour/alcohol intake.

Thank fuck I work with less stupid people now. 😡

Forgot; man shows that he has thought little about the subject, knows little about the subject, shows little sensitivity and empathy on the subject but crashes about the discussion anyway with ignorant and crass remarks he thinks are perceptive (they aren't) whilst displaying male privilege and obliviousness to that privilege.

So far, so old.