To say that the UK is not a Rape Culture?

[PatriarchyPersonified]

So I have had an argument with a lady I work with today that has ended with her calling me the "Patriarchy Personified", hence the name.

She claimed that the UK was a Rape Culture. I completely disagree and it feels like this is more creeping 'third wave' bullshit.

If you look at the definition of Rape Culture which is:

a society or environment whose prevailing social attitudes have the effect of normalizing or trivializing sexual assault and abuse.

Then it's clear that she is wrong. I don't disagree that there are elements of UK society that I would argue probably are characterised in this way, but you can not describe the whole UK in those terms.

She was extremely unhappy to be challenged, I work with her on a weekly basis and I've got a feeling I'm not going to have heard the last of this!

Sorry but I don't think a straight man has any right to argue with a woman about what she thinks is rape culture / patriarchy or not. The same way a white man cannot decide what is and isn't racism.
And you're not bringing anything new to the table, so yes, I would also worry you're just here for rape stories. I hope we're wrong.

In my experience, there is a widespread acknowledgement and acceptance in the UK that some men use alcohol, coercion, tricks/lies and just wearing women down to get sex. This behaviour is seen daily and it is just seen as what happens, men try 2all the tricks of the trade to get women into bed".

Women get harassed in the street, on public transport, in homes, at work, pretty much everywhere. Most of this is minimised as "not that bad" or "finding something to be offended by".

Women who do complain are dragged through horrendously invasive questioning and have their history used against them to prove an accused innocence.

Online and in daily life, threats of rape and sexual violence are frequently used against women who "speak out or rock the boat".

The fact that none of the above is shocking, or new news to anyone, pretty much proves that a rape culture does exist in the UK.

"The stats you quote of one in five women isn't for rape. It's for all sexual assaults. Any type of sexual assault is unacceptable, but there is obviously a big difference there.

I used quite a broad definition of Rape Culture earlier in that it included sexual assault as part of it. Most definitions of Rape Culture (including one that a poster cited earlier) actually restrict it to just rape. In which case those numbers aren't relevant.""

So why are you suddenly changing your definition when the figures go against you?

"Now I don't want to play that game because it seems quite a disingenuous way of getting out of that point. so do you think that sexual assaults such as indecent exposure etc are part of Rape Culture? If so how?"

I think it is part of the Rape Culture in the same way as I think threatening someone with a knife is part of the violent crime culture, even if you don't actually stab your victim in any vital parts.

Exposure is a threat. It is designed to exert power over women by making them feel uncomfortable and threatened. It is a reminder that there are men out there who get off on sexually frightening and humiliating women.

The verbal threat of rape is another one. Extremely common against young women in service jobs, who have in some ways failed to satisfy the customer (e.g. by running out of his favourite biscuits). Again, as a woman, you can't know for sure: does he mean it, does he not? Is he going to be waiting for me when I come off my shift?

Groping is possibly even more common. Often in very public places where you can't do anything about it without creating a scene and damaging your own prospects. Relatives of mine have been groped at school, on stage, at parties, in buses.

Refilona

A white man can't decide what is and isn't racism

Eh? So if someone said to me 'I hate white people', I'd have to go and consult my black friend before I could confirm if that was racist or not?

Riding you're right, what a depressing thought. My point was to illustrate that it doesn't all come down to evidence in court, because we live in a world that sides with men, will give them the benefit of the doubt and values women far less when it comes to this topic, and that in it's self is rape culture.

OP rather than coming here and demanding women prove rape culture exists to you, why don't you prove that it doesn't? What evidence do you have?

Do we really need to throw any more fish at this sea lion?

Angel

I never said rape culture doesn't exist. Just that the UK isn't one.

This thread is rape culture in action. As was your conversation with your female colleague from the sounds of it.

Listen up OP, I rarely shout but I'm going to here.

RAPE CULTURE IS MEN TELLING WOMEN THAT RAPE CULTURE DOES NOT EXIST OR THAT IT ISN'T A BIG DEAL BECAUSE OTHER WOMEN HAVE IT EVEN WORSE.

OP you are bolstering rape culture right now on this thread.

I'm not surprised your colleague called you Patriarchy personified. I reckon that was her being polite by the way.

Yes, I said it was sexual assaults in my original post but you're too busy trying to pick holes to pay attention to what we're saying.

And that's enough for me on here. Because I suspect it doesn't matter how many women say it or how many stats we give you, you're not going to believe us. You're far too intent on trying to make your point.

If you genuinely want to know why we think there's a rape culture, try listening to women for once. You'll get it.

ok

the definition of rape culture

a society or environment whose prevailing social attitudes have the effect of normalizing or trivializing sexual assault and abuse.

so it's actually nothing to do with actual rape. God you are a dullard.
but probably a bit bored, so I'll give you ten out of ten for the effort. maybe they sent you over from reddit!

I never said rape culture doesn't exist. Just that the UK isn't one.

What evidence do you have to support this?

I never said rape culture doesn't exist. Just that the UK isn't one.

And now, thanks to all the statistics, facts and discussion from intelligent women on this thread, you realise you’re wrong.

Do you think you’ll apologise to your colleague on the back of this?

I really hope your colleague is on mn and stumbles across this thread. It would make for great reading for her.

Op I guarantee the vast majority of women have had sex where they were coerced/tricked/ or where it has not been consentual.
This might suprise you OP but the men who are doing this aren’t some tiny portion that are seemingly getting around. It’s the majority of men. Men who don’t understand consent. Men who are desperate. Men who are drunk. Men who are used to having sex with someone so they’re entitled to it again. It’s your friends, your relatives, your colleagues.
FWIW I’ve never met a man that I’d be 100% would not assault a woman when drunk.

OP you don't actually understand what rape culture is so fuck off with opining to women about it.

www.shakesville.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html?m=1

society or environment whose prevailing social attitudes have the effect of normalizing or trivializing sexual assault and abuse

Repeating the definition that just, amongst many other posters, has posted

So based on that I believe that the UK definitely has a rape culture

*In the same way that Drug Culture exists, and some parts of the UK have a Drug Culture.

But the UK is not a Drug Culture.'* alcohol, alcohol, alcohol and more alcohol.

Are you doing circles in the shower thinking of all the things you should have said

My point was to illustrate that it doesn't all come down to evidence in court, because we live in a world that sides with men, will give them the benefit of the doubt and values women far less when it comes to this topic, and that in it's self is rape culture.

I understood exactly what you're saying and I agree. The criminal justice system is a patriarchal system that upholds the existing power balance.

One of the many important points that came out of the Harvey Weinstein scandal is that institutions and criminal justice systems in the west are poor at dealing with sex crimes.

Rape culture is men not knowing what rape culture is whilst having the extraordinary arrogance to ignorantly witter on about it in the presence of women.

Rape culture is men not knowing what rape culture is whilst having the extraordinary arrogance to ignorantly witter on about it in the presence of women

[/endofthread]

Getting ready to go out I'm afraid mulch.

Some really good points on here though. I'll pop back and address them later.

this thread is genuinely interesting. It's certainly given everyone some food for thought.

Are you aware how patronising your last sentence is? Pronouncing that we've all been given food for thought?

Great post beachcomber

OP your example of someone saying the hate white people shows how little

I'm not even saying some communities in the UK aren't Rape Cultures

Your answer to @BenLui 's question asking which communities you mean was a cop-out, OP.

You clearly have no conviction in your argument.