To say that the UK is not a Rape Culture?

[PatriarchyPersonified]

So I have had an argument with a lady I work with today that has ended with her calling me the "Patriarchy Personified", hence the name.

She claimed that the UK was a Rape Culture. I completely disagree and it feels like this is more creeping 'third wave' bullshit.

If you look at the definition of Rape Culture which is:

a society or environment whose prevailing social attitudes have the effect of normalizing or trivializing sexual assault and abuse.

Then it's clear that she is wrong. I don't disagree that there are elements of UK society that I would argue probably are characterised in this way, but you can not describe the whole UK in those terms.

She was extremely unhappy to be challenged, I work with her on a weekly basis and I've got a feeling I'm not going to have heard the last of this!

I have a friend who was violently raped, by a stranger. Something relatively rare. She was grabbed, held in his car and raped. She had bruising round her neck where he throttled her, she had several injuries. Her rapist was let off in court, not because of a lack of evidence, but because the jury live in a society where rape culture exists and believed that his defence of "she liked it rough" was likely, was not worth "ruining his life over", that she shouldn't have been drunk and alone and was therefore partly to blame.

I read an article about a woman who was raped whilst on her period and was wearing a tampon. His defence: she wanted it too much to bother to take it out. The jury decided to believe him.

There was a woman in the paper who was raped by her husband WHILST GIVING BIRTH. The jury let him off too.

It is often not a lack of evidence, it's the jury valuing a man over a woman, buying into rape myths, living inside of rape culture...

And I'm guessing Patriarchy thinks his username is ironic but wow, so so apt.

Also- years ago I did a training about safety for women who travelled a lot for work. One exercise had us standing on a map of the world asking where we had felt least safe as women. The top three were Tunisia, India and the U.K.

People in the group had travelled v extensively, but most were U.K. Based and most of the stories we shared about having been followed, assaulted, intimidated, took place in the U.K.

There are many places I'd choose not to live, but I do not feel save to walk around at night the way my husband does, and there is a reason for that.

That's part of conundrum though, of course guilt must be provable to punish, and rape often has little evidence due to the nature of it. That, combined with an (albeit improving) history of being horrendous to victims and lenient to perpetrators (even proved ones) sways the system to the benefit of rapists and they know it.

Not an easy fix at all, but the bias is there. I know this example is the US but I've read of similar in the UK and can't remember the names involved, but the swimmer Brock who even in the face of irrefutable evidence came up in front of a judge that felt his career was worth consideration.

The pulling apart of victims (children sometimes!) on the stand. There's not an obvious instant solution because sometimes that provides the 'evidence', but to deny the current legal setup doesn't advantage those that enjoy committing hard to prove sexual offences against women (mostly women because they are what most men are sexually attracted to) is downright sticking your head in the sand. And yes, it pervades our culture as a whole.

My concern is this: we had absolutely no guarantee that this OP is not a rape fetishist who has come on here to get women to talk about rape.

The work colleague may well not exist. He could just be getting off on this.

The vested interest in minimising rape would tally with that.

I would even say that people aren't disgusted by rape. They are disgusted by the thought of someone they know being a rapist. Like rape is so heinous that someone they know or admire couldn't possibly be guilty because rape is always violently being dragged down a dark ally by a stranger when actually it's more likely to be someone you know.

It's easier for both men and women to try and find fault with the victim and perpetuate rape myths rather than accept that rape is closer to home than they think.

See: Adam Johnson, Ched Evans, Bruno Langley to name a few.

And AngelSin description of her friends rape is part of my concern. (Not criticising her personally)

I wouldn't share any stories about rape on 'this thread, personally.

OP you clearly stated that if the rape stats in a mens prison was 1 in 4 (1 in 5, not much difference) that it would be a rape culture.
so now you're changing your argument.
you can't just say "in comparison to..."

lets say we compare it to Rwanda or Somalia. They have been going through wars. I bet the rape stats would be massively higher than 1 in 5 if we were going through a war! isnt 1 in 5 shocking enough.

and anecdotally (which I am sure you'll think is rubbish) 90% of women I know have been sexually assaulted.

In which case the expression no longer has any meaning.

Why not? What's wrong with considering it to be a global social issue, then?

And for what it's worth, refusing to believe women when they tell outright that rape is a problem in the UK is a pretty blatant indicator that we have a rape culture.

If you’re making comparisons with other countries, particularly third world countries, then no. If you’re making comparisons with different cultures, then no (citing the condoning of rape within the Quran).
However, OP it is very much trivialised still when it comes to sexual assault and rape within relationships & drunken encounters & this is a huge problem.

And for what it's worth, refusing to believe women when they tell outright that rape is a problem in the UK is a pretty blatant indicator that we have a rape culture.

Yup.

Yes all these millions of women just making stuff up because we've got nothing better to do!
Sure, I don't want to live in SA because of violence and sexual assault, but then that doesn't mean there is rape culture here. In fact it's slightly worse that is still is so PERVASIVE here

isnt

OP, I note you also expressed discomfort at terming Britain as racist in this thread.

you really need to try and understand the word pervasive as well.

Winchester

When have I said rape isn't a problem?

Riding

So your new line of attack is to imply I'm a 'rape fetishist'? Wow. Talk about closing down debate.

You're not actually making any argument at all though OP. You're just simply stating that you think there isn't a rape culture (sorry, Rape Culture). Why do you think that?

YABU.

This is such a goady thread, Patriarchy. It's just so hard for a woman to get through the process, most cases get dropped before they even get to court. The majority don't get pursued by the CPS, after a very long wait while the police investigate and prepare their report. The victim's word isn't enough, though it would be in other crimes, as other PPs have said.

"If you're going to categorise the UK as a Rape Culture then you have to categorise the entire world as a Rape Culture. In which case the expression no longer has any meaning."

Why does that mean it does not have any meaning? If every nation of the world was at war at the same time, would we have to redefine the word 'war' and decide only countries using chemical weapons could be considered to be properly at war?

If every country of the world was simultaneously swept by a cholera epidemic, would we redefine cholera and decide that countries where x % of the patients survive don't actually have cholera because cholera would be meaningless? Or would we say "this is absolutely intolerable, something must be done"?

Ask any woman if her sexual assault, her looking over her shoulder as she walks home at night, her knowing that she will lose her job if she complains about being groped by a customer- ask her if this experience becomes meaningless because it happens to other women too? Ask her if that makes her less afraid, ask her if that makes her feel less disgusted? Go on- ask her! You can probably start with any one of us.

Just

The stats you quote of one in five women isn't for rape. It's for all sexual assaults. Any type of sexual assault is unacceptable, but there is obviously a big difference there.

I used quite a broad definition of Rape Culture earlier in that it included sexual assault as part of it. Most definitions of Rape Culture (including one that a poster cited earlier) actually restrict it to just rape. In which case those numbers aren't relevant.

Now I don't want to play that game because it seems quite a disingenuous way of getting out of that point. so do you think that sexual assaults such as indecent exposure etc are part of Rape Culture? If so how?

@PatriarchyPersonified what do you think rape culture means?

it's very funny isnt it. that I 100% knew that you would come on here and point out sexual assault inst the same as rape. Because of course you are right. But I guess that's what makes rape culture, minimising of one form of sexual assault over another form of sexual assault
Next you'll be saying there are different types of rape.

and I am out. You have just proved that you are incredibly ignorant, I suggest you go and do some proper research and learn something about a part of society that isn't you.

Cory

You make a good point and one that I hadn't considered. I suppose my response would be that if rape has always occurred and in fact has been at higher levels in the past, then it's meaningless to say that 'now we live in a Rape Culture'.

In the context of your war example I would say if the whole world had always been at war to the point that there was no other state of being and in fact the fighting had historically been much worse, then the term 'war' would probably have little meaning.