To say that the UK is not a Rape Culture?

[PatriarchyPersonified]

So I have had an argument with a lady I work with today that has ended with her calling me the "Patriarchy Personified", hence the name.

She claimed that the UK was a Rape Culture. I completely disagree and it feels like this is more creeping 'third wave' bullshit.

If you look at the definition of Rape Culture which is:

a society or environment whose prevailing social attitudes have the effect of normalizing or trivializing sexual assault and abuse.

Then it's clear that she is wrong. I don't disagree that there are elements of UK society that I would argue probably are characterised in this way, but you can not describe the whole UK in those terms.

She was extremely unhappy to be challenged, I work with her on a weekly basis and I've got a feeling I'm not going to have heard the last of this!

Well then you've lost me Pengggwn, I now have no idea what you are saying.

I understood it to be that rape culture is not part of your life and (in your opinion) lots of people's lives and that therefore you do not consider it to be a mainstream phenomenon but one that only exists in subcultures.

but rapists in this country are hated, they're prosecuted under the criminal law and go to jail for it and they lose their jobs for it.

Only proper rapists though. Not that poor guy who just misread the situation and has had his life ruined because insert excuse here

We live in a country where one of the biggest selling newspapers has a topless woman on page 3, and this is accepted and even defended as some kind of cultural 'icon'.

By "proper rapists" I presume you mean masked strangers who leap out of dark alleyways and attack modestly dressed virgins on their way to Church? "Proper victims" if you will?

By "proper rapists" I presume you mean masked strangers who leap out of dark alleyways and attack modestly dressed virgins on their way to Church? "Proper victims" if you will?

Absolutely. Not poor old Keith who got a bit carried away with that slapper from the pub who was giving him the come on all night.

Poor blokes wife chucked him out on his ear too and won't let him see his kids. Still expects him to open his wallet though

Part of the problem with the rape culture idea is that it positions rape as a primarily female problem

Stig May I suggest you read or watch something by Jackson Katz? e.g.

www.ted.com/talks/jackson_katz_violence_against_women_it_s_a_men_s_issue

As for the how rape culture minimizes sexualised violence, well that's been described by plenty of posters on this thread when we talk about the continuum of behaviors and society wide phenomena that teach women and men that sexualised violence and an atmosphere of sexualised violence is inevitable and normal (groping, cat calling, leering, flashing, rape jokes, pestering women and girls for sex, porn, prostitution, porny music videos, etc plus the massively high rates of rape and sexual assault).

This. With the addition, as datun suggests, of the repertoire of minimising, dismissing, disbelieving, mocking and silencing that reflexively kicks in the moment anyone tries to point out that this is happening.

Surely one of the primary characteristics of a subculture is that it isn't conventional or mainstream. Otherwise it would just be "culture" rather than "subculture".

subculture

the way of life, customs, and ideas of a particular group of people within a society that are different from the rest of that society.

mainstream

The ideas, attitudes, or activities that are shared by most people and regarded as normal or conventional.

This is because feminists tend to only look at certain narrow definitions of the offence.

Sorry, what? It's precisely feminism or more precisely women who explain that rape covers a wide variety of scenarios. And thus cannot be minimised to a collective of 'deviants'.

This is because trans people don't fit the demographics of the typical 'victim' and hence are less likely to be taken seriously. When discussing their experiences in court many trans people state that they feel as if they 'are on trial' for being trans and that there is often the unspoken suggestion that they were 'asking for it'.

Women, male, trans, rape is rape. Most women certainly do not fail to take rape of anyone seriously. Women often don't fit the demographic of the typical victim themselves and are thus not taken seriously or actively accused of lying. Equally women find themselves on trial in court and assumed to be asking for it.

These issues are not specific to being trans they are common to all rape victims regardless of gender or sexual orientation.

Which is not to say that male rape victims don't experience prejudice and homophobia specific to being male, that trans don't experience transphobia specific to trans, and women don't experience misogyny specific to being female.

Pengggwn seems to have decided that the definition of rape culture is toxic masculinity - which it is not. And that toxic masculinity is a subculture not pervading the mainstream. Toxic masculinity can flourish within a rape culture but they are not the same thing.

While there exist groups of boys and men who have a toxic group think; toxic masculinity is present in mainstream movies, pop songs and videos, magazines, books and porn which impacts boys and men generally, even if they choose not subscribe to those values.

I think it's just another strategy for othering and keeping sex offences and harassment at arms length as something that happens elsewhere to other people.

Pengggwn, every definition that I have read of subculture contains the word "different" or "variant". Yes of course subcultures exist within a broader culture. They can be big, small, well-known and little known. What makes subcultures subcultures is that they are different from the dominant / mainstream culture.

From Wikipedia :
Subculture, a concept from the academic fields of sociology and cultural studies, is a group of people within a culture that differentiates itself from the parent culture to which it belongs, often maintaining some of its founding principles. Subcultures develop their own norms and values regarding cultural, political and sexual matters.

The reason I'm banging on about this is because it seems to me that you are arguing that the values of rape culture manifest in subcultures but not in our society's dominant culture. I call this dominant culture "mainstream" and the manifestations that I see of rape culture exist very much in the mainstream dominant culture.

These manifestations are on the telly, in the media, in mainstream newspapers, on the BBC, in our legal system, in mainstream religion, in schools, in the workplace, in popular culture, in the music industry, on our streets, in our homes, etc. And this not only in the UK but in every society in the world. How can that not be considered ubiquitous?!

I wish it weren't so and I would dearly like to be convinced otherwise.

Saying that rape culture exists only within subcultures is akin to saying that sexism exists only within subcultures. It's a ridiculous and minimizing thing to say.

614 posts later, and all bar two people disagree with OP. But those two reckon no one is listening to them, and everyone else is being unreasonable.

No one has answered how high statistics would need to be before they agreed we have a rape culture.

My trans post was just intended as an example of how easy it is to put forward an anecdotal argument backed my no statistics whatsoever...

ChristmasRage

You can add the world's largest sexual assault charity to the list of those that agree with the OP.

StigOfThePlump, your trans post contains the claim that feminists are the reason for the underreporting of rape of transgender people.

Which sounds like utterly unsubstantiated made up bullshit to me. Feminists don't run the police force or the legal system.

More stats on the ubiquity of rape in undeviant men

an interesting ny times article on undetected rapists

OK Pengggwn.

I'm afraid I don't understand your argument because it seems to be that rape culture manifests in subcultures, that subcultures are mainstream but that rape culture does not manifest in the mainstream.

It's not making any sense to me or convincing me of anything.

christmasrage yes, people are happy to say there’s no rape culture when 1 in 5 women have been assaulted, but are so reluctant to say ‘but there would be a rape culture if not was 2 in 5 or 4 in 5’ - it’s a wilful denial of the problem.

I honestly can’t see how you can be a woman in the UK and not recognise that it exsists and how extensive it is. I can’t think of a single one of my female friends who hasn’t had some kind of unwanted sexualised behaviour forced on them, or who hasn’t been told ‘dress modestly, don’t drink too much’.

I also think that people think if it’s not rape by a total stranger in an alleyway then there are shades of grey. In the wake of the sexual assault allegations there were so, so many people trying to minimise with the phrase ‘not REAL abuse’ ie if it’s not rape then it doesn’t count. It’s absolutely sickening.

I’m interested in what those posters suggesting the U.K. doesn’t have a rape culture think it would be like if there was. How would it be different?