To say that the UK is not a Rape Culture?

[PatriarchyPersonified]

So I have had an argument with a lady I work with today that has ended with her calling me the "Patriarchy Personified", hence the name.

She claimed that the UK was a Rape Culture. I completely disagree and it feels like this is more creeping 'third wave' bullshit.

If you look at the definition of Rape Culture which is:

a society or environment whose prevailing social attitudes have the effect of normalizing or trivializing sexual assault and abuse.

Then it's clear that she is wrong. I don't disagree that there are elements of UK society that I would argue probably are characterised in this way, but you can not describe the whole UK in those terms.

She was extremely unhappy to be challenged, I work with her on a weekly basis and I've got a feeling I'm not going to have heard the last of this!

but rapists in this country are hated, they're prosecuted under the criminal law and go to jail for it and they lose their jobs for it.

This is rubbish. The vast majority of rapists walk free in the U.K. Even when they are convicted, people fall over themselves to explain why it wasn't rape and that he was stitched up (see: Bruno Langley, Adam Johnson).

shorty6768

That’s prejudice. And it’s awful. It’s not oppression on the basis of race. That requires material gain from the people who are oppressed.

The same way a man can be the victim of sexual assault. But men as a class are not oppressed.

Barack Obama, can be the most powerful man in the world, but it doesn’t stop oppression of black people, as a class.

The key is ‘as a class’.

Individual experiences are important and should be acknowledged. But that’s not what opression is.

I am not denying your experience. And I can fully appreciate it.

I think most people have a stereotype in their head of what a 'rapist' is like, and what 'rape' means. If a celebrity is accused then people don't want to believe that they're capable of such an appalling crime. So they attempt to explain it away, and this leads to victim blaming.

And the majority of people see rape as being a stranger wearing a balaclava, not a glamorous sportsman or actor, because they think, he surely doesn't need to force a woman to have sex with him. They don't realise that rape is about power not about sex at all.

Ooh. That is a difficult question, not least because the degree to which such an attitude might be displayed or ingrained is relevant, as is the perspective from which one sees it. I think it is impossible for me to quantify it.

And I completely appreciate that, but with respect, you have quantified it - just now you see it as a sub-culture and if I’ve read correctly, you identify it that way because it doesn’t directly affect you. It definitely affects me and it will definitely affect my daughter - and I too know lots of nice men, lots of family and friends who haven’t experienced or committed assault. To me, it’s a big enough problem now (with the stats that we know, that have been discussed on this thread, with the issues and experiences that have been discussed) that it seems impossible to deny that we need to deal with it.

And the majority of people see rape as being a stranger wearing a balaclava, not a glamorous sportsman or actor, because they think, he surely doesn't need to force a woman to have sex with him. They don't realise that rape is about power not about sex at all.

I absolutely believe this, many lovely idiotic people I know wouldn’t class it as rape if the woman willingly went back to a hotel room. These are the same people who see consent as a grey area.

You quantified it as a sub-culture and I’d love to hear your reasons for that quantification.

Because it doesn’t affect you directly?

Such a strange argument - “I don’t know any so they must be in the minority”! You do realise your personal circle is not representative of the UK?

I know a tiny handful of Leave voters among my wide circle of friends, family, colleagues and acquantainces. That doesn’t make them a minority or a “subculture”, sadly!

The analogy isn’t perfect but the fact remains that if you think you’re not affected means that you’ve probably internalised some of the attitudes that minimise the objectification of women, for example - maybe not consciously, but you have.

So what are your reasons?

I have argued on this thread that it affects everyone, not just people I know. I think around page 11. It affects all women. All of us.

Pengwwyn you mention P5 boys. So they are quite wee. Thank God they aren't watching internet porn and showing it to P5 girls.

My eldest DD is 14 and she has been exposed to porn via mobile phones since she was 11. It was something that started in secondary school with kids having phones, a bit more independence, etc.

She is much more cynical and blasé about violent nasty porn than I can bear to think about. Because she has to, because she lives in a society that has a very mainstream very well established rape culture.

And exactly as a previous poster said the way this works is that it is so pervasive it is practically invisible if you don't stop to really think about it. Hence the use of "culture" in the expression "rape culture".

Ok, could you please point out where? Or copy and paste? Thanks.

Was it the bit I highlighted earlier? At the top of the page?

And therefore, to me, rape culture - as real as it is - is a subculture, it isn't ubiquitous in the U.K.

This bit? But when I asked you if you classified it as a sub-culture because it didn’t affect you, you said no.

So why do you classify it as a sub-culture?

Right so they are your period 5 boys not boys in P5. That was a bit obtuse for anyone that doesn't work with you.

Great. You teach 14/15 year olds who don't encounter rape culture or that you do not know encounter rape culture (or porn or misogynistic pop videos). I'm glad for you because I find it a total head fuck of a struggle to try to guide my daughter through this shit. I'm proud of her maturity and critical thinking skills but I wish I didn't have to be so early in her young life.

And I haven't even started on her experiences of street cat calling and harassment.