To say that the UK is not a Rape Culture?

[PatriarchyPersonified]

So I have had an argument with a lady I work with today that has ended with her calling me the "Patriarchy Personified", hence the name.

She claimed that the UK was a Rape Culture. I completely disagree and it feels like this is more creeping 'third wave' bullshit.

If you look at the definition of Rape Culture which is:

a society or environment whose prevailing social attitudes have the effect of normalizing or trivializing sexual assault and abuse.

Then it's clear that she is wrong. I don't disagree that there are elements of UK society that I would argue probably are characterised in this way, but you can not describe the whole UK in those terms.

She was extremely unhappy to be challenged, I work with her on a weekly basis and I've got a feeling I'm not going to have heard the last of this!

Pengggwn come on now. I’ve asked you several times why you have decided to classify it as a ‘sub-culture’- how you make that distinction. You pointed me back to this post:

However, I also think there is a HUGE segment of UK society - including me, my DH, my numerous siblings, my friends, my PIL - who are not exposed to and do not propagate such attitudes. Many, many people will never have been assaulted, will never have excused assault, will not condemn women for the clothes they wear when they are assaulted etc. And therefore, to me, rape culture - as real as it is - is a subculture, it isn't ubiquitous in the U.K.

You, your dh, siblings, friends, PIL, and on a previous post, the boys in your period 5 class.

In what way is this not ‘because it doesn’t affect me’? And if that’s NOT why, what are your reasons for calling it a ‘sub-culture’ - why, to you, is the ‘sub’ necessary?

And Pengggwn, I really don't want to be mean but your posts on this thread are exactly something you say you don't encounter, which is manifestations of rape culture.

Denying that rape culture is ubiquitous is rape culture in action.

Sorry to be harsh because I think you mean well.

Rape culture was so named by feminists because they needed to put words on a thing that they could see was so pervasive and ubiquitous that it was normalized to the point of invisibility.

I guess it's a bit of a "red pill" thing. Once you start seeing you see a lot. I understand not wanting to see, but I don't think it's helpful.

Because that person is the one who made the statement ‘sub-culture’.

Pengggwn, I honestly don’t know how clearer I can make this - you recognise rape culture exists. But you classify it as a ‘sub-‘ and all I’m asking you is - why?

You’re totally entitled to think that, that’s your opinion. But I’m asking you why you have that opinion.

What?

The detail as to whether rape culture is a sub culture (by which I understand you to mean that it only affects some kind of negligible underclass) or whether it matters?

Well it matters to me because it affects me and my daughters and not only are we not some kind of underclass which can be conveniently ignored but I don't think any mother or daughter can be ignored in feminism.

The majority of people that bang on about rape culture are 3rd wave feminists, who represent only circa 7% of women in the UK. I honestly feel that if it was as big a problem as they make out then we would hear more about it from women in general.

Here’s what RAINN (America’s largest and most influential anti-sexual-violence organisation) have to say about rape culture.

In the last few years, there has been an unfortunate trend towards blaming 'rape culture' for the extensive problem of sexual violence on campuses. While it is helpful to point out the systemic barriers to addressing the problem, it is important to not lose sight of a simple fact: Rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime.

I’ve worked in digital forensics previously and have encountered many cases of child abuse, rape, paedophilia, homicide, etc. I have seen the demographics of the offenders and read many detailed case reports. My opinion is that of the above, that it is a small, deviant collective of perpetrators that commit these crimes.

I’m just baffled by how blinkered and arrogant you must be to assume that the culture around you personally is the dominant culture everywhere - and anything else must be a “subculture”.

No. You live in a little bubble in which the men don’t appear to be sexist. In your opinion. Doesn’t mean that none of you are affected by rape culture. If you don’t think any of you are affected by it, you’ve misunderstood the definition of rape culture.

It’s not detail. I don’t think you can be a feminist and deny that rape culture exists, that it’s dominant and pervasive in our society. It’s not feminist to silence so many other women and “other” their experiences of what you call a “subculture” because those experiences don’t tally with your own.

Cross posts. I was addressing Pengwyn.

I would disagree strongly that rape 'is not caused by cultural factors', while I equally strongly agree that it is also a conscious decision by individuals.

It's both.

Culture facilitates, enables indivuals to make decisions that they might not make in a different culture. If rape is sort of acceptable they're much more likely to do it.

Just look at pro footballers culture in the UK. And in fact rape and sexual assault is commonly linked to jock culture in the US too.

I’ve worked in digital forensics previously

It's a very small - and I would imagine rather unrepresentative - proportion of rape and sexual assault incidents that make it as far as digital forensics

Genghis

Are you sure of that?

Cell site analysis of a suspect’s phone is one of the first processes in determining their potential whereabouts at the time of a suspected offence.

Stig
I think your point is interesting and valid. I agree that we cannot blame rape culture for individual crimes - of course the perpetrator is fully responsible. But I think we can examine rape culture to explain the fact that so many sexual crimes go unreported and unpunished. Surely fear of punishment would be more of a deterrent to some perpetrators if it was more likely to happen. The blame still lies with the perpetrator. But the judicial/penitential system exists to punish crime. So society has assumed responsibly for that.

I honestly feel that if it was as big a problem as they make out then we would hear more about it from women in general.

Where do you live? I hear it from women all the time. I know 4 women who've been raped. I don't know anyone whose never been sexually harassed or mildly sexually assaulted. My school is currently undergoing historic abuse investigation from the 70s-90s.

Have you not been reading the news? More and more women speaking out on the culture of harassment and abuse in their industries. Just read three examples today - TV, universities and architecture. Politics, movies have kind of been covered.

I don't know why the silence of the lambs is always used as evidence return these crimes don't exist. It does show women must be speak out.

Stig yes I am. Most offences are never reported. Many reported offences are never recorded, much less investigated.

have seen the demographics of the offenders and read many detailed case reports. My opinion is that of the above, that it is a small, deviant collective of perpetrators that commit these crimes.

I've worked in a voluntary capacity with da perpetrators and sex offenders, I've read a great deal of research into sex offences and their investigation/prosecution.

The demonising of all sex offenders as deviants and othering them is one of the biggest rape myths there is.

Paedophilia and child abuse have specific patterns and are different in nature from more mainstream sex offences against teens and adults.

Most sex offenders are ordinary men who crossed a line.

Emma

I agree that there are many societal issues surrounding the subject, and I certainly don’t want to come across as a rape apologist.

That said, I think that ‘shame’ could play a significant part in many instances and the reluctance of some people to report an incident doesn’t necessarily mean that they wouldn’t be supported/taken seriously if they did. It’s similar to how men are embarrassed reporting domestic abuse.

I’m not minimising this horrific crime but I do think that hysteria doesn’t help. Somebody mentioned the George Lawler case a while back and this is a good example. He basically said that he didn’t need to be told that rape was wrong (and refused to attend consent classes) and was basically hounded off campus by feminists shouting “rapist” at him and was threatened with physical violence on multiple occasions. He was a bit of a muppet and could’ve avoided all this but I felt sorry for the guy. Don’t even get me started on Mattress Girl...

Riding

That’s an interesting post. I’m effectively a glorified tech geek, so whilst I’m privy to a lot of evidence I don’t research the trends.

I thought many sexual abusers had experienced abuse themselves? This wouldn’t fit with the ‘ordinary people crossing a line’. Not challenging/being goady, I’m genuinely interested.

I’m not minimising this horrific crime but I do think that hysteria doesn’t help

You are minimising it and labelling women as hysterical does you no favours at all. You've already shown signs of the unfortunate tendency of men on rape threads to be extremely ignorant of the subject while trying to mansplain it.

Fucking "hysteria" again. No one is hysterical and discussing a topic on a chat forum is not hysteria.

I thought many sexual abusers had experienced abuse themselves? This wouldn’t fit with the ‘ordinary people crossing a line’. Not challenging/being goady, I’m genuinely interested

If you mean child abuse, there's evidence that some who are abused as children go on to abuse children.

Patterns of sex offences against teens and adults are slightly different and it's those I said aren't necessarily 'deviant' as you called it, although the term is non-specific.

Some paedophiles and child abusers seem perfectly normal that's why they're so hard to spot.

*Not Jimmy Savile though.

Rape culture notes:

• when we're raped it's our fault because we should have known it was likely to happen and taken better / different precautions

• when we talk about rape as a thing that happens we're being hysterical and maybe paranoid

Maybe pop over to the thread "Have you ever had a close call"