To say that the UK is not a Rape Culture?

[PatriarchyPersonified]

So I have had an argument with a lady I work with today that has ended with her calling me the "Patriarchy Personified", hence the name.

She claimed that the UK was a Rape Culture. I completely disagree and it feels like this is more creeping 'third wave' bullshit.

If you look at the definition of Rape Culture which is:

a society or environment whose prevailing social attitudes have the effect of normalizing or trivializing sexual assault and abuse.

Then it's clear that she is wrong. I don't disagree that there are elements of UK society that I would argue probably are characterised in this way, but you can not describe the whole UK in those terms.

She was extremely unhappy to be challenged, I work with her on a weekly basis and I've got a feeling I'm not going to have heard the last of this!

The thing about culture is that nobody can really 'see' their own culture because to them it's just how things normally are.

Fish don't see the water. And to stretch that analogy, women are drowning while men say, "I can't see the problem, the water is lovely".

I think you have it broadly correct in your original post Patriarchy.

There are real rape cultures around the world however, particularly India and in the ME.

'Better than India' on the matter of rape culture is not where I'd like the bar set.

women are drowning while men say, "I can't see the problem, the water is lovely"

And while other women tie themselves up in knots trying to explain that #metoo doesn't matter because NAMALT and that men getting off to portrayals of gang-rape on Pornhub is 'just fantasy' with no relationship whatsoever to endemic rape in rl (and on porn sets)

Those are the women who got a place in the life boats. They are doing OK for now in the patriarchy. For now. So they have a vested interest in neither sharing the lifeboats nor pissing off the system that gave them the place.

I could run with this analogy!

I think a fair few of them are in the water desperately trying to enjoy the sensation of drowning

Crackednips, while it's true that the UK is not as much of a rape culture as India or the ME (I work for a women's charity that focuses on Central Asian women, and it's very much the same there) but there are definitely aspects of rape culture here in the UK as well. There is victim blaming, why is a woman's sexual history relevant, and what she was wearing, or whether she was drunk?

And why is her sexual history relevant at all? It was supposedly banned from being used by a defence team, but then Chrd Evans' legal team was allowed to use it in his appeal. The victim becomes the accused. No wonder there are so few convictions.

Others have also mentioned porn and lads' mags.

It's definitely not an exaggeration to call the UK a rape culture.

There are aspects of a lot of things in a lot of areas and I certainly dont believe we live in a perfect society in this regard by any means, but rapists in this country are hated, they're prosecuted under the criminal law and go to jail for it and they lose their jobs for it. I don't believe that makes us a rape culture.

There are places in this country where a ‘rape culture’ has existed in recent years, such as Rochdale and Rotherham, Newcastle, Keighley Calderdale etc etc . But this particular rape culture wont be discussed by so many feminists, as enthusiastically as Ched Evans is, for some strange reason?

Don't forget about the amount of abuse the woman in the CE case received. Having her identity revealed multiple times, forcing her to move and change names again and again. The comments everywhere online about her. The constant calls for anonymity for those accused of rape/sexual assault, plus the calls for victims to be prosecuted for making false allegations if the case isn't taken forward or there's a not guilty verdict.

The child victim in the Adam Johnson case had her picture printed in the Sun, who were fined a massive £1000 for doing so. She was named on Twitter as well, and subject to the same kind of abuse as the woman in the CE case.

How much more of this is needed before people accept this is a feature of rape culture?

People absolutely discuss the rape culture in Rotherham etc!
There is still a huge problem with people thinking a 15 year old can consent to sex with a 20 yr old, or multiple 20 year olds.
There is an issue with thinking it's ok to have sex with a woman who is asleep, or giving in reluctantly.

It's huge.

Cracked nips,
In India, people are prosecuted and jailed for rape, too. Does that mean they don't have a rape culture?

In the uk most rapists do not lose their jobs or go to prison because of rape.

You used the very odd phrase "no-one I know is part of a rape culture" as if it were some kind of distinct social group - and makes me question whether you really understand the term at all or the discussion.

If sexual harassment and misogyny exist in your school and you're 'acquainted with' people who you might consider 'part of a rape culture' (whatever that means to you) then you're not 'away' from it as you claimed upthread, it's around you.

Indeed you seem to be trying to minimise the incidence of harassment and misogyny at school by holding it at arms length as another 'subculture'. If it exists in school it exists in school.

I didn't use the word endemic. Which begs the question asked of the OP - what level of rape and assault and harassment would have to exist for you to accept evidence of a rape culture? How bad is bad enough?

I actually came to the thread to commend all the posters involved on their fortitude and patience in dealing with the OP. I salute you.

See ya.

It seems to me that many people are explaining why they think we have a rape culture, while the OP and one or two others say 'no we don't'.
I don't think the fact that rape is illegal is enough to say we don't have a rape culture. I don't think the fact that I know quite a lot of people who haven't been raped is enough. I don't think 4 in 5 women not being raped in their lifetime is enough to say it. That some men have been imprisoned and lost their jobs isn't enough to say it.

To be fair, I don't know what it would take to make me believe we don't have a rape culture. Let me try...

I'd want to be confident that everyone understands enthusiastic consent.
I'd want to know that if I report a rape, my clothing past experiences and alcohol consumption were not considered relevant.
I'd want to know that the perpetrator would go to prison and do some rehab around consent and objectification.
I'd want depiction of sex crimes on tv to be less glamourised.
People would no longer refer to each other as objects or body parts- 'I'd like a bit of that/look at that rack' etc.
Women in public wouldn't receive rape threats.

That's just a start. To me, because we don't have the above, we do live in a rape culture.

Pengywwn, that's great for you if you don't know anyone that's ever made, laughed at or heard a rape joke and you are sure that no one in your circle has ever minimized sexual assault or experienced the minimizing of sexual assault but that doesn't mean that such a culture is not mainstream.

I'm really surprised that you haven't come across it as a teacher. My teenage DD goes to a nice mainstream school and most of the boys she knows look at porn and openly talk about it in a way that makes the girls feel uncomfortable and often humiliated. These are good normal boys with parents who care. This is mainstream rape culture and it's only one example, I could give you plenty more.

Nice for you that you avoid it but it seems that you avoid it by not watching mainstream telly, mainstream pop videos, not encountering mainstream school boys, etc.

Pengggwn I can appreciate that no-one you know participates in maintaining a rape culture, although unfortunately I can’t say the same. But I’d love to know too, at what point would you consider Britain to have a rape culture?

I asked the OP several times, which was obviously a waste of time because he’s determined to pretend it doesn’t exist. But if you see it as a sub-culture then I’d love to hear an argument (apologies, for lack of a better word) on the other side from me.

@streetlife70s
*Your example is one of PREJUDICE. Racism equals prejudice PLUS power. Since there are no structural powers woven into society to disempower white people, those words have little impact unpleasant as they are. There is no power at a fundamental societal level to support them.

Reallllly?? Not all of us had the privilege of growing up in an area where the majority of people were also the same race as us.

Where I grew up the majority of people were from ethnic minority backgrounds. Since the age of 11 until 18 every single day I left the house I was targeted because I’m white. I was subject to physical violence, sexual harassment, sexual assault, stalking, threats and intimidation constantly because I was white. It was absolutely horrific & when I told someone about it I was told to shut up because it was seen as racist because they were an ethnic minority & I should cover myself better (at the age of 11 wearing school uniform with trousers).
But yeah.... can’t be a victim of racism if you’re white because some privileged white people haven’t experienced it must mean it never happens.

However, I also think there is a HUGE segment of UK society - including me, my DH, my numerous siblings, my friends, my PIL - who are not exposed to and do not propagate such attitudes. Many, many people will never have been assaulted, will never have excused assault, will not condemn women for the clothes they wear when they are assaulted etc. And therefore, to me, rape culture - as real as it is - is a subculture, it isn't ubiquitous in the U.K.

I disagree that it’s a huge segment of the UK, I think you’re in quite a privileged position when none of your family or friends have experienced assault or have at least attempted to excuse it in any way. But that is your experience and I appreciate that.

But my question is: how prevalent does it have to be for there to be a rape culture in the UK, in your opinion?