To say that the UK is not a Rape Culture?

[PatriarchyPersonified]

So I have had an argument with a lady I work with today that has ended with her calling me the "Patriarchy Personified", hence the name.

She claimed that the UK was a Rape Culture. I completely disagree and it feels like this is more creeping 'third wave' bullshit.

If you look at the definition of Rape Culture which is:

a society or environment whose prevailing social attitudes have the effect of normalizing or trivializing sexual assault and abuse.

Then it's clear that she is wrong. I don't disagree that there are elements of UK society that I would argue probably are characterised in this way, but you can not describe the whole UK in those terms.

She was extremely unhappy to be challenged, I work with her on a weekly basis and I've got a feeling I'm not going to have heard the last of this!

OP has drawn the discussion to a close because he has that authority. His interesting little debate is done and the rape culture problem is resolved as far as he is concerned

Ok so you've never heard of Jimmy Carr, never watched films with glamorised sexual violence in them, never seen a noir series starting with the vicious murder of a prostitute or a young girl running from a predator - usually a serial killer with sexual motives, never noticed the misogyny in Hollywood movies, and pop songs, and pop videos, or noticed salacious and misognyist reporting of sex offences in the media specifically victim blaming, never noticed the vile comments on online newspaper websites or YouTube, never read of all the female MPs and media figures who get regular rape threats, never heard of Harvey Weinstein or the fall out of that case which shows that actually sexual harassment and a low level of assault (in some cases not so low) is fairly endemic across many institutions and businesses. Cf Matt Lauer, Louis CK, Roy Price, Terry Richardson. You've not come across Chethams scandal or heard of the death of Frances Andrade, or noticed other historical abuse cases at a number of prestigious school across the country. Never heard of Ched Evans or Adam Johnson or Bruno Langley or Roman Polanski or Woody Allen.

Only just yesterday I read of a 20 year old man found not guilty of rape of a 14 year old - who agreed to go with him in a car but then texted her mum to say she was scared, and her mum set out to search for her but had no idea where she was - because the man claimed she said she was 16 and consented.

Where can you possibly live that you're away from all of this?

Oh I forgot to mention the porn - a whole topic in itself wrt rape culture -"teen sluts get it in both holes" "redhead gets her ass pounded", "first anal screaming and shaking", categories such "rough", "gang bang", "teen", "casting", "school" "18 and abused"...

Not forgetting that men have spent ONE MILLION YEARS on porn hub since 2015. The most popular search being teen rape.

And who can forget Ms Magazine’s advice to minors on how to have anal sex? Calling them non-prostate owners, omitting the clitoris from the diagrams and conveniently forgetting a study that said 94 percent of girls don’t want anal, and an equal number of boys know they don’t, but want to make them do it anyway.

But yeah, nothing to see here.

I agree, the UK's rape culture is absolutely mainstream and not a subculture.

Porn, prostitution, lad mags, rape jokes, dick pics, cat calling, ogling and harassment of girls and women, porny sex, rapey sex, underage girls being targeted for sex, no means yes, girls and women being raped and sexually assaulted when they are asleep or drunk, underreporting of rape and sexual assault, low numbers of convictions for rape, etc etc are all totally mainstream.

I don't watch porn either, nor do I watch shit TV - although I wouldn't strictly call Stieg Larsson, or Engrenages or The Killing shit TV - but it doesn't make any difference whether we watch it or not - many millions do and it permeates our culture whether we like it or not. This is absolute mainstream not any kind of subculture.

The mainstream has been pornified - so that music and music videos, adverts and tv series are much more highly sexualised than they used to be.

The fact that I can probably name all the mumsnetters who speak out against porn is proof positive that there is a rape culture in this country.

And you don't have to watch "shit" TV to realise that the corpses are usually women.

riding

I read about that case yesterday

I dont get it

He has been charged with keeping her prisoner so i really dont understand why the jury believes that he must be telling the truth about the rape...or is it a thing that kidnappers dont lie about

And then the poor mother not being able to find her and telling her thats its ok and obviously as he kept her prisoner that all she has to do is tell the truth and it will be ok and it isnt ok!!

Just horrendous

Hang on, why is this thread still going? OP told us to stop now, didn't he?

You are being unreasonable. The fact that people still try victim blame and such low convictions make it pretty obvious there's a rape culture.

Another one here who doesn't watch porn, same can't be said for shit tv but then one persons shit is another persons diamond so...

The most popular search being teen rape

This always baffles me. Why aren't people more concerned about this? I don't buy the argument that porn is 'fantasy' so that makes it ok.

It's definitely not a subculture. It may not affect you directly, but it's still everywhere. I see it even more now that I have 2 DD's. I worry for them as they grow up.

"This always baffles me. Why aren't people more concerned about this?"

Because what men want, men get.

Because what men want, men get

You hit the nail on the head with that one.

SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace He said he was taking a break and we should come back, so thats a green light

Interestingly, OP's method of debate mirrors other debates I've seen. The same language and arguments being used to disprove the existence of other things or concepts such as the existence of men and women as a class, or the existence of the patriarchy.

Oh come now, he did say that those of us who weren't being hysterical and didn't need to take time out to have a long hard think about what we've done had made some useful points!

Because what men want, men get

Exactly that, unfortunately.

@Pengggwn, I think you may move in a subculture where there isn't a rape culture. Mainstream UK where most people interact has a strong rape culture, I'm afraid.

In Nottingham and one or two other Police regions, offences against women are now classed as hate crimes. So cat calling assault etc are recorded as hate crimes. It will be interesting to see the statistics, when they are ready.

Primary or secondary Pen?

'No-one I know is part of a rape culture'?

What are you talking about?

There aren't many (any) secondary schools in the country that are not affected by misogyny and hypersexualisation and the normalisation and trivialisation of sexual harassment and assault. Sexting, porn, consent issues, slut-shaming, victim blaming...

Lots of the 'not a rape culture' comments focus on stranger rape in the street. Obviously everyone is disgusted by the masked stranger.

A year or so ago there was a meme/skit that turned up everywhere on my Facebook about quickies post kids. They end up doing it in a cupboard and the woman waits inpatiently for it to be over while listening out for the kids and wondering how her husband can enjoy it under such pressure.

The number of friends who laughed and agreed with this just horrified me. Clearly this wasnt rape - it was consensual - but it showed the underlying belief that sex is for men and done to women.

I remember a male friend (rapidly an ex friend) joking that he was going to get women to sign a consent form so he knew they were not going to accuse him of rape later. Is it that hard to only sleep with people who enthusiastically want to sleep with you.

And I remember being on the Cosmo forum years ago when a male user mentioned a uni date where he'd wanted sex and she really hadnt but they'd carried on kissing and he'd 'persuaded her'. Looking back he regretted it, especially as she was quiet and tearful afterwards and left quickly. But he didnt - until forcefully told a lot - realise he'd raped her.

We live in a culture where the basic understanding of consent is fucked. Where a drunk and barely able to walk woman consents to sex with one man & if his mate happens to walk in the room having lied to get the key its ok for him to swap in for a bit then walk off without ever talking to her.

We live in a culture where the basic understanding of consent is fucked.

It’s only very, very recently that the determination to ply a woman with drink so you can have sex with her has stopped being called a seduction technique.

The thing about culture is that nobody can really 'see' their own culture because to them it's just how things normally are.

Part of the problem with being brought up in a rape culture is that you just don't see it because it's normal. Rape and sexual assault are more or less legal in this country (looking at the prosecution rate and the consequences for reporting versus committing it); rape is considered entertainment (most drama involves sexual violence and most comedians joke about it) and rapey pornography is mainstream and training up a generation of young people into increased normalisation of gendered sexual violence.

I get why women don't want to see this.