To say that the UK is not a Rape Culture?

[PatriarchyPersonified]

So I have had an argument with a lady I work with today that has ended with her calling me the "Patriarchy Personified", hence the name.

She claimed that the UK was a Rape Culture. I completely disagree and it feels like this is more creeping 'third wave' bullshit.

If you look at the definition of Rape Culture which is:

a society or environment whose prevailing social attitudes have the effect of normalizing or trivializing sexual assault and abuse.

Then it's clear that she is wrong. I don't disagree that there are elements of UK society that I would argue probably are characterised in this way, but you can not describe the whole UK in those terms.

She was extremely unhappy to be challenged, I work with her on a weekly basis and I've got a feeling I'm not going to have heard the last of this!

Beachcomber

I'm applying the widely accepted definition of rape culture. It's even been quoted back to me by other posters.

If you have a different definition then great, but it's not the definition we are discussing.

This is the point I made yesterday. Words have meanings. If we all just decide to define something as serious as rape culture any way we choose, then it becomes a meaningless term.

@Jaxhog
If women are out seeking a partner, they will try to be as alluring as they can.
But they are searching for that one person in the crowd.
So they are not trying to attract all men, although many men will be attracted and get the wrong idea totally.

@Beachcomber's post doesn't conflict with or contradict the shorter definition that's been previously posted.

How many women have to be sexually assaulted for you to agree the UK is a rape culture?

Pumper

Why are you obsessed with getting me to give you a specific number? The answer, like almost all complicated questions is "it depends".

It feels like your trying to catch me out in some way? Why?

It's pretty obvious. You disagree that the current rates of sexual assault in the UK is evidence of a rape culture. So the response is to ask you what level would be evidence of a rape culture. Or I suppose you could respond that the rate of sexual assault is not an indicator of rape culture and explain why you think that.

You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that rape culture is all about the frequency of actual rapes.

It doesn’t mean that. It’s a phrase used to describe the insidious and pervasive culture that teaches men and boys that women are fair game, that they all like it rough really, that no doesn’t really mean no. That Alpha Males can take what they want, and so should Beta Males because otherwise it’s unfair on them. That drunk women in short skirts are asking for it. That women lie about rape. That’s it’s not rape if she doesn’t struggle. And on and on and on.

It’s a culture that teaches women and girls to be careful, to be quiet, to avoid going out alone at night, to watch their drinks and stay with their friends, to meet in a public place, to walk with your phone and keys in your hand. That if you are attacked, stay quiet and don’t scream because you’ll anger him, don’t report it because you won’t be believed, that it was probably your fault anyway.

This is the culture we live in. Rather than denying it, why not try to do something about it?

@AnachronisticCorpse
THIS

Look up the word culture in the dictionary and it says this:

the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society.

You are the one who wrote this:

The chance of a woman being raped or sexually assaulted in this country is very very low

-which was wrong, by the way. But ‘1 in 5’ wasn’t enough for you so my question is ‘how many in five have to be sexually assaulted for you to consider the UK a rape culture?’

Or do you just not believe rape culture exists?

AnachronisticCorpse has it spot on!

There you go OP, AnachronisticCorpse has perfectly summarised exactly what rape culture means. Read it a few times and see if it sinks in?

You are very transparent by the way, you with your penis of calm and objectivity. Do they give you tips, over on Reddit, as to how to present as reasonably and patiently as possible, in the face of such hormonal hysteria from us wimmin?

PatriarchyPersonified
Name 5 steps you take on a regular basis to protect yourself against rape or sexual assault.
Does that sound ridiculous?
Are you offended when women take precautions around you? For example, if you offered a woman a lift in a car and she photographed your numberplate, would you be offended?

Yes, it's a society that teaches girls from when they're little that they should be a princess that needs rescuing by a brave knight, that she's helpless.

It's a society that teaches a little girl that she isn't allowed to say no to physical displays of affection. Because she would be rude if she did and hurt the man's feelings.

Obviously my case was extreme as a child, but the message is there.

Thyme

I've used a widely agreed definition of rape culture. Like I said before, if you want to change the definition to include every objectionable behaviour a man can possibly exhibit then ok, but that doesn't change the actual definition does it?

No hysterics thankfully, I don't think of women in those terms. What's true however is that I've never had this much personal abuse on an Internet forum before, even when discussing other controversial issues. Disagree with my point all you like, I enjoy a robust discussion. A lot of people on here seem to look down on places like reddit, but in all seriousness, they would fit right in.

Pumper

How is it wrong to say that the chance of being raped in the UK is low? We have already done the stat game thing ad nauseum.

You think one in five is low? Really? So if you have five children you accept one of them is very likely to be raped, but that doesn't mean we live in a rape culture?

I'm gobsmacked. If and area had one in five people murdered, or mugged, or houses caught fire, I'm sure you'd think it was a problem area.

Why is anyone wasting energy on this numpty?

Pickle

The full stat is one in five women will be raped or suffer some form of sexual assault (exposure, touching etc) during the course of their entire life.

Without rehashing my entire argument from this morning, that's a very different proposition from just "1 in 5"

Good question Ninon. I should know better than to get dragged in. These types positively relish the attention. Sad really.

Why do you think that the behaviours described aren't part of rape culture? Because they aren't specifically mentioned in the brief dictionary definition?

I would disagree that we don’t live in a ‘thug culture’. When aggression and violence is tolerated and even encouraged in men in a society, as I would absolutely say it is in the UK, I would view that as a male violence culture, to be more accurate. I think that’s probably more obvious to women, who are brought up somewhat on the outside of that aspect of male socialisation, looking in.

is the UK a:

"a society or environment whose prevailing social attitudes have the effect of normalizing or trivializing sexual assault and abuse"?

yes. yes it is. as many many here have been constantly telling you. there you go, case closed.

now please apologise to your colleague for being a bellend.

Assassinated

They are defined in the Wikipedia article that people keep referring to as 'behaviours that are associated with rape culture'.

As I stated earlier, 'associated with' is not the same as saying they are causative agents. The classic Internet example I borrowed earlier is that parrots are commonly associated with pirates, but that doesn't mean when you see a parrot, it means there must also be a pirate.

Why is the choice of word in a wiki article the be all and end all of this? Why do you say they are not causative?

Assassinated

That article has been the definition commonly referred to for this entire discussion with no complaint from anyone. Why are you calling it into question now that it doesn't fit your narrative? Is there a better definition and description you have been sitting on for the last day? What is it?

I've used a widely agreed definition of rape culture.

And hey presto, through rigid observance of that two line definition I've reduced a highly complex and nuanced subject to fit my opinion which is informed by .... what? Looking out your window, talking to your mates in the pub, watching the news and reading the papers?