To say that the UK is not a Rape Culture?

[PatriarchyPersonified]

So I have had an argument with a lady I work with today that has ended with her calling me the "Patriarchy Personified", hence the name.

She claimed that the UK was a Rape Culture. I completely disagree and it feels like this is more creeping 'third wave' bullshit.

If you look at the definition of Rape Culture which is:

a society or environment whose prevailing social attitudes have the effect of normalizing or trivializing sexual assault and abuse.

Then it's clear that she is wrong. I don't disagree that there are elements of UK society that I would argue probably are characterised in this way, but you can not describe the whole UK in those terms.

She was extremely unhappy to be challenged, I work with her on a weekly basis and I've got a feeling I'm not going to have heard the last of this!

I don't have a narrative. I'm asking you why you feel that it's the vital part of that description, and why you think the behaviours cited are not causative or contributory to rape culture.

Clara

As opposed to expanding the definition to include every single objectionable behaviour that a man can do, to the point where the logical conclusion is that the whole world is a Rape Culture, always has been and by some of the definitions I have seen lumped in this thread, always will be?

Seriously, if you take some of the ideas proposed in this thread that apparently 'define rape culture', I literally cannot see a possibility of there ever not being one in a world populated by humans.

*The full stat is one in five women will be raped or suffer some form of sexual assault (exposure, touching etc) during the course of their entire life.

Without rehashing my entire argument from this morning, that's a very different proposition from just "1 in 5"*

How is it different?

Pumper

Hmmm. I think you know the answer as you responded directly to my initial argument this morning.

You actually called my maths into question, but when I asked what your objection was, you never responded.

"I literally cannot see a possibility of there ever not being one in a world populated by humans."

Well, I can't see how surprising that would be given historical (and current) treatment of women globally.

Hmm. I don’t, I’m afraid. I could guess that it’s different because you think it’s only worth bothering about if it’s actual rape - so ‘exposure, touching etc’ doesn’t count. But that can’t be right, can it?

Feel free to copy and paste any direct question to me that I’ve missed and I’ll do my best to answer it for you.

Ok, so you are just refusing to engage again. You won't say if you are happy for one in five of your children to have that experience. The majority of women I know have been assaulted multiple times, so I don't know where that fits statistically. If my father knew how often, he'd be horrified.

You however don't seem to care or see it as a problem. Do you have children?

I'm not interested in your point of view, you have added nothing to my understanding of the topic apart from a recognition that some men really are goady idiots who have no interest in a female perspective at all.

I think your colleague was kind in her treatment of you.

And so I think it's probably time to draw stumps on what has been a really good discussion.

We are now entering the realm of circular questioning and the same posters asking to have the same arguments repeated. The vast majority of the discussion has been productive however.

On a side note, it might be worth posters taking the time to detach emotionally from the discussion, then revisiting this thread in a few days. Some of the stuff has been pretty extreme in terms of personal abuse and gaslighting etc. It's certainly not how I expected a grown up discussion on Mumsnet to go! I think if people revisit some of the things they have said after a break they might gain some perspective.

On the whole though it's been really helpful for me to hear opinions that I wouldn't have otherwise had exposure to.

For those who are interested I spoke to the lady I had the initial disagreement with and we resolved things amicably today.

"nd so I think it's probably time to draw stumps on what has been a really good discussion"

It hasn't been a really good discussion at all. It's been a man repeatedly telling women that they are wrong in the face of overwhelming evidence.

And so I think it's probably time to draw stumps on what has been a really good discussion

Annnnd that's time everyone. The man has decided that we've discussed this enough, we now need to be quiet.

Late to this.
OP's post at 15.52 is like some kind of dream Bingo call.

For those who are interested I spoke to the lady I had the initial disagreement with and we resolved things amicably today. smile

I really hope you apologised to her.

On a side note, it might be worth posters taking the time to detach emotionally from the discussion

See there's your problem. It's a philosophical discussion to you. A game. To us it's lived experience of sexual harassment and assault since childhood. Which might make a person tetchy, peeved even. If you posses empathy, try to imagine being sexually harassed from 11 years old (if you're lucky) by men who are much bigger than you. Touched by them without permission, constantly pressured into sexual acts with them and having a 1in 5 chance of being raped or sexually assaulted (actually much higher if you count all unwanted sexual touching as assault).

Oh and they run the courts, police, government and media.

Personal abuse and gaslighting or just getting pulled up on your statements.

I think posters have been quite kind and patient.

Well said, MrsTP

On a side note, it might be worth posters taking the time to detach emotionally from the discussion, then revisiting this thread in a few days.

^ This is the exact type of dismissive and patronising attitude that women come up across whenever we try to highlight how widespread the problem of rape, sexual assault and sexual harassment is in this country. These attitudes stop women being taken seriously about these issues and make women feel unable to speak up for fear they will be dismissed or seen to be making a fuss over nothing.

The very fact you apparently don't see the irony on using this sentence on a thread of this nature highlights the exact issue.

You have failed to really try to understand the points made to you on this thread and just batted them aside and declared them wrong or ignored them completely.

I would like to take a moment to thank the women on this thread for their patience, empathy, understanding, intelligence and fortitude.

Just read the whole thread.

Ye gods. How insanely arrogant do you have to be, as the OP of this train crash, to think that this was an interesting discussion???

It was literally every poster explaining (pretty patiently) to the OP why he was wrong, and him repeatedly failing to understand. It was breath-taking.

There's a certain type of profoundly inadequate man who likes to start 'discussions' like this. He's usually unsuccessful at work - and thinks this is because of evil feminist culture ensuring that women (and black and brown people, if he himself is white) get all the promotions that he should have had.
He's probably had two or three informal warnings for mildly inappropriate behaviour at work, and may well have been sent on a diversity/equality course if he's in the public sector. (Mildly inappropriate would be crass remarks rather than assault, the sort of stuff that's pervasive and annoying and upsetting but generally not regarded as severe enough for full-on disciplinary action)
He's usually single, though sometimes he manages to find a woman who is lonely, desperate or otherwise vulnerable, who he can persuade to date him for a while. Though he's a lot more likely to be moaning to his equally inadequate acquainances about what a NiceGuyTM he is and how women are all bitches.
He thinks that if he can just mansplain enough to women, they will accept that he is their superior, so he tries every possible way of finding women to talk at and annoy.
And he gets his arse handed to him every time. And everyone laughs at him. The end.

OP your last post is just breathtakingly patronising.

Everyone else hands up who thinks, given the tone the OP has used on this thread, that the real life discussion was resolved amicably on both sides?

Personally I’d bet my boots that she nodded and smiled for the sake of her job while internally seething.

You haven’t gained the respect of your colleague OP any more than you have gained our respect.

I will bet my last fiver that this (mythical?) woman at your work would give us a very different interpretation of your "amicable resolution", OP.

In this thread you've displayed no ability whatsoever to be empathetic towards the experiences and opinions of others. I can't imagine you're much different in real life, so in her shoes I'd simply have resolved to give you a very, very wide berth so that we could both get on with our jobs in peace. That would probably have involved nodding and smiling when you talked, then getting away from you as quickly as I could. None of that would have meant an amicable resolution.

You're so clueless, I'm cringing for you, mate.

Oh x-post Ben, I didn't see yours before I posted mine, internet is being weird. My hand is up, anyway!

Great minds Soph