To say that the UK is not a Rape Culture?

[PatriarchyPersonified]

So I have had an argument with a lady I work with today that has ended with her calling me the "Patriarchy Personified", hence the name.

She claimed that the UK was a Rape Culture. I completely disagree and it feels like this is more creeping 'third wave' bullshit.

If you look at the definition of Rape Culture which is:

a society or environment whose prevailing social attitudes have the effect of normalizing or trivializing sexual assault and abuse.

Then it's clear that she is wrong. I don't disagree that there are elements of UK society that I would argue probably are characterised in this way, but you can not describe the whole UK in those terms.

She was extremely unhappy to be challenged, I work with her on a weekly basis and I've got a feeling I'm not going to have heard the last of this!

Instead of asking if the UK is a rape culture-something that may or may not be true according to the semantics of the exact meaning of the words "rape culture"; ask yourself why so many women think it is?

The fact that your colleague got so upset may mean she has personal experience of this or just that she is frustrated at you not listening to her experience. Either way you were insensitive not to see this and to step back from the argument .What is it you want to achieve by "being right"

I probably come down on the side of saying the UK is not a rape culture in the exact definition of the word. However, I would say that the vast majority of women in the world (including the UK) have their day to day life curtailed in some way by their fear of what men can (and often do do to them). The extent of this curtailment varies and in the UK it may be less than in many other places but it is a very real worldwide problem.

Ask yourself - is it right that as another poster says we don't give advice to men as to how to avoid being accused of rape? Why do we just lecture women on how to avoid being raped instead?

Ask yourself why so many young boys/men can think of no worse insult than being called "girly"

Why are you dismissing what so many women are saying about feeling safe from sexual in assault in the UK?

Is it because like so so many men you think women are somehow "lesser/ hysterical/childish/non rationale " and therefore shouldn't be listened to.

Things are definitely changing.
For instance I think that a lot(not all) of the increase in transgender lifestyles is somehow related to our cultural struggle to deal with our really fucked up, deeply ingrained gender stereotypes . So in a weird way I have hope of change, though my feelings about this are conflicted (another whole can of worms best left for another thread though)

The chance of a woman being raped or sexually assaulted in this country is very very low

You wouldn't know, because you are not a woman so you don't know what women as a class have to put up with on a daily basis.

Please stop, you're embarrassing yourself.

The chance of a woman being raped or sexually assaulted is very low?

Do you actually KNOW any women? I don’t know one single woman who hasn’t been assaulted, and many many of my friends have been raped.

It’s not some rare phenomenon.

I have no idea why I’m even engaging with this, it is making me too angry.

anyfucker

Eerrm

Wasn't standing up for him

At all

I havent throughout the thread

I thought i was joking with you...saying that you were helpful reminding that someone called him a dick after he listed all the other things that people had called him

Well, when reading the thread anyway

As ive only posted twice

patriarchy

And has been said innumerable times on the thread there is still a rape culture in the uk

Nothing you have said disproves that, although you seem to want evidence from everyone else

Let's be clear, the only figures and statistics I have used have been those given to me by people on this thread that are taken from the ONS website I believe. If anyone is unhappy with those figures then don't blame me, I didn't introduce them.

It feels like some posters want to work off the assumption that every woman who lives in the UK has been the victim of a sex crime. If that is true then:

1. Where is the evidence?

and 2. That would give us a higher rate of sex crime than the Congo and other areas of the globe where rape and sexual assault are used as weapons of war.

Is that really characteristic of the situation in the UK?

OP you are clearly being a GF - you are minimising women's experience. Many people on this thread have shared their experiences and I know of several friends who have been subject to rape and/or sexual assault - that's an alarmingly high rate considering people's friendship groups are relatively small.

I think you should be a bit more sensitive and step away now as you are getting to 'complete twat territory' - LISTEN to women's experience and stop harping on about YOUR perception of something you'll never experience.

You're being very offensive by asking for 'evidence', OP. What do you want as evidence? Our personal experiences? A lot of women won't tell you in RL if they've suffered rape or sexual assault, they will feel like you're making them relive them.

Your colleague may well have been through a traumatic experience and you could easily make her feel violated again. It's deeply disturbing, the way you're carrying on about this.

You’ve had plenty of evidence on this thread already.

This constant demanding of yet more evidence is why people think you’re a fetishist, by the way. Since the statistics aren’t enough for you.

How many women does it have to affect before you admit you’re wrong? Every single woman in the UK? It kind of does - as has been pointed out to you already, they tell US not to get raped. We aren’t allowed to get too drunk or dress too revealingly or walk home alone. I’d say that makes rape pretty pandemic in Britain. You could almost say ‘rape culture’ couldn’t you?

I think you misunderstood sealioning. You are doing it. Politely and insistently and insensitively refusing to engage with the perspective of the person you are picking an argument with.

Look at him wanking himself silly and laughing at us as he wilfully misinterprets the statistics. It’s just a fun game on a Thursday morning for men like this

Pickle

By "refusing to engage with" you mean not accepting peoples opinion and agreeing with them?

I can't agree with someone when I see problems with their argument.

It might be that none of us ever agree. But at least we hear each other's points of view. Isn't that the whole point of these kind of discussions?

No the whole point of these discussions is that you get everyone frustrated with you and you love that

Just checking, OP.
Do you think "a rape culture" means that every woman has been raped?
If not, what do you think it means?

I have not read all the thread yet so I don’t know if this has already been posted

Approximately 85,000 women and 12,000 men are raped in England and Wales alone every year; that's roughly 11 rapes (of adults alone) every hour. These figures include assaults by penetration and attempts.
Nearly half a million adults are sexually assaulted in England and Wales each year
1 in 5 women aged 16 - 59 has experienced some form of sexual violence since the age of 16

If 25% is not a cultural, What percentage of women would have to experience sexual violence for it is be a cultural? 50%, 75% or 100%?

There has been a lot in the media recently about grooming and abuse of teenage girls in our region recently. One of DH colleagues had noticed on a few occasions some vulunerable looking drunk teenage in a park in on is the area that had been specifically target so he contacted the police who told him ‘not to worry those girls are not vunerable, they know what they are doing’.

I personally don’t watch reality TV and know lots of people who don’t but I would still say there is a culture of watching reality TV. Someone does not have to have happened to you to make it real.

Of course not everyone minimises, excuses and ignores rape, sexual assault, sexual harrassment and the objectification of women, but enough people do it for it to be a dominant trend in our society.

Including our Government cf. the disgraceful way the inquiry into historic sexual abuse is shaking down. There's a case study in the Minimising of sexual abuse on an industrial scale. IMHO.

The OP has failed to grasp the concept of rape culture. He doesn't understand what it is.

If he did he wouldn't be wittering on about statistics and making the deeply misogynistic claim that because he doesn't think enough women are raped in the UK for it to be considered to have a rape culture that means it doesn't.

Basically the OP's argument is that not enough women are raped in the UK.

Nice.

His badgering women to talk about rape is offensive and his use of statistics is ignorant.

All this because a woman at work argued that men have a collective responsibility for rape culture and it pissed him off.

OP what you are doing now is rape culture. This thread is rape culture.

I can see that the name Patriarchy Personified sums you up, your colleague was absolutely right. I think you're trying to goad us into sharing personal accounts of what actually happened to us. What kind of evidence are you looking for, what will convince you? I suspect you're always going to want more.

86,000 rapes per year, therefore the overall stats on sexual assault will be much higher, and the vast majority won't be reported to the police.

I think you're trying to goad us into sharing personal accounts of what actually happened to us

It very much seems that way. The fact that the OP, rather than apologising if he's coming across that way, is merely outraged that anyone would suggest it, is telling.

How very dare anyone suggest at someone on the internet is not exactly who they claim to be, or that a man pitching up on a woman's forum to discuss rape may have nefarious motives? Indeed.

Ok.

Do not share personal anecdotes of your own or your friends experiences of rape and sexual assault.

1. It is not appropriate or necessary and the other poster is quite right in stating that.

1. It doesn't help your argument anyway.

Can we move on from this or are we going to bog this down again with more personal attacks on my motives?

So, how many women would have to be raped for you to agree the UK is a rape culture?

How many times have you been asked this now?

What are your motives?

In reference to the statistics, it was other posters that produced these figures in the first place to back up their claims, I'm refuting them.

The behaviours being described below (slut shaming, sexual objectification etc) are categorised as 'behaviours associated with rape culture', not as causative agents of it. Demonstrating that these objectionable behaviours exist in our society doesn't show that the society is therefore best described a Rape Culture. To borrow an Internet example, parrots are commonly associated with pirates, but that doesn't mean when we see parrots, it means there must be pirates.

A Rape Culture is one where rape and sexual assault are normalised and trivialised. Sex crimes in our society are not treated 'normally'. Perpetrators are vilified. Even the accusation is often enough to ruin someone's life/career etc. That is not a characteristic of normalised behaviour.

Rape and sexual assault are not trivialised. Thy are illegal and treated as some of our most serious crimes. If you have a problem with the way the justice system works sometimes then fine, I'd be inclined to agree in part but that's not evidence of rape culture.

The UK is not best described as a Rape Culture.

What are your motives?

On what basis are you disputing the statistics?