Meghan and Harry don't look right together

[bungle99]

I was in small shop earlier with only 4 of us in their. I am a regular customer.
I heard a member of staff who was serving another customer talking about Meghan and Harry and staff member said they don't really look right together and that she's not an English Rose like Kate Middleton. I was really shocked by this because 1) that people of my generation actually think like this (middle age) 2) that she admitted this view out loud knowing i could actually hear it (i'm not white). I was only 3 feet away.

AIBU to think that this was a racist comment and that most white people do not think like this ? Please restore my faith Mumsnet.

and she looks like Mary from Coronation street, has a very soft chin, and is about a size 18-20

Of all the insults you could throw at this woman “a soft chin” of all things?

Are chins the new eyebrows or something? Where if your chin isn’t on fleek you might as well go out with a paper bag on your head?

Her chin just seems such a random thing to comment on...

Better- comment at 13.17...

Ah yes, got it! Random partner of Harry Styles look-alike, living in poster's street. Couldn't quite work out at first how this fitted into the debate.

what does english rose even mean - are english roses not red??

I couldn’t work out why her soft chin is so significant!

It's obviously part of a new standard of beauty that I was unaware of, reallyanotherone.

@Peanutbuttercheese thanks for clarifying. I also have a DM who stays out of the sun at all costs and wears factor 50! Have explained to her that vitamin D deficiency is alot worse than getting a bit of a tan, but she wont have any of it.

I have never heard of a women of colour being described as an English Rose

Exotic or dusky yes somehow not quite so pure and refined

There are very few Caucasian women who could be described as an English Rose! It refers to a very specific look, with creamy complexion, blue eyes and blonde/fair hair. Cressida Bonas or Princess Diana are examples. But there is more than one type of beauty and a problem only arises if people start to insist that there is only one, set standard. Why on earth should everyone aspire to being an English Rose? Strangely enough, outside this thread, I've very rarely heard the term used. What I have heard, from practically every quarter, is a warm admiration and appreciation for the new member of the royal family - not just her looks, but abilities and personality.

I am mixed race - very mixed. In fact, where i come from, my fellow countryman describes me as 'others'. Its what ive grown used to. People try and guess where im from, its all a funny game to them, most of the time they get it wrong, simply because im too much of a mix for them to guess. My husband is english and my children are mixed race - people try to guess where they are from too. It gets annoying but im used to it now. Just yesterday someone referedd to my daughter as 'coloured' - i didnt even know how to take it because i know my friend didnt intend to cause offence/be racist - it did stick in my mind though. I know some people who refer to me as 'exotic' - i mean, what on earth does that even mean?! I know they probably mean it in a nice way, but its odd. I do worry about my children sometimes - i dont want them thinking they are 'others' - like me.

I dont know if the term 'english rose' could be deemed racist or not, because i never thought that phrase automatically meant white, but if it does, then YANBU.

Why would what they are saying be racist? I'm not getting the comment and where the racism is. Do you /they mean because she's not English/British?
I used to say half caste, round my way it's just a term we used for mixed race before mixed race was a proper politically correct term. Some elderly still say it now. It wasn't meant as anything bad, just someone who had parents of mixed cultures. I don't know the 'caste' meaning.
But it's like anything, terms/ words/sayings move on over the years due to racism and political correctness or just move with the times.

On a different note I saw Wills on TV recently and couldn't believe how he has aged. He is like something from Spitting Image. I felt a bit sorry for Kate.

@sparklemummy - saying that a couple don't look right because she is not an English Rose like Kate Middleton, is implying that they don't look right because she's not English or white.
I think 'Caste' means pure. So if someone is half caste then they are half pure which is why that term is no longer used, but i do understand that in the olden days t the term that was used frequently as a lot of people didn't know what it actually meant. Obviously describing someone as half pure is insulting therefore 'mixed race' is now used.

The remark is quite clearly racist because it didn't simply state that Meghan Markle was not an English Rose. (It is clear to everyone that she doesn't have blue eyes, blonde hair etc). It is racist because it states that the couple didn't look "right" together which contains a moral judgement. What was being implied was that only couples of the same ethnicity are "right" together and that it isn't "right" for different races to "mix" in marriage. (This was the founding principle of Apartheid.) The reference to "English rose" (which the speaker approved of as the type of partner suitable for Harry) makes the values underlying the comment quite obvious.

So yes, a horrible, racist remark.

@sparklemummy - now half-caste i would def classify as being a little racist - ive been called that too (by the older generation and some newer ones) I do understand that back in the day, not many people knew what it meant and it was a widely used term to describe 'half-and-halds' (yet another im used to! ) in this day and times though - not so widely used.

Kate Middleton is not an English rose! She is a brunette with dark eyes and hair. But women's exact features are not the issue here, and are not intended to be. What is being contrasted is one racial group versus another and coming down in favour of one.

I always thought English Rose was used to describe someone like a young Emilia Fox / Julie Christie type and the main subtext was to say they were virginal.

(I'm not English though, so may be wrong)

Definition of English Rose on Wikipedia :-
'English rose is a description, associated with English culture, that may be applied to a naturally attractive woman or girl of traditionally fair complexion who is from or is associated with England.'

Doesn’t the English rose bit come from when a very Caucasian with said white creamy complexion’s cheeks turn red in the cold aka Snow White I would guess would be the epitome of an English rose.

If Snow White was English, yes! It is all about the complexion as I understand it, has to be pale-ish, probably with rosy cheeks. Also pretty and young. But hair/eye colour doesn't matter.

It is an old fashioned concept now.

As I said in my last post, the actual physical definition doesn't matter. The phrase (which is very rarely used outside this thread) is being used as a weapon to denigrate Megan Markle and non-White people generally. Luckily the enthusiastic reaction of the crowds on her and Harry's first public walk-about demonstrated that the majority of people in this country don't agree, thank goodness.

Bettercallsaul1
the actual physical definition doesn't matter.
Well, it does. As bungle99 cited, the phrase English Rose has a definition and since this thread is discussing this phrase the definition obviously matters.

The phrase (which is very rarely used outside this thread)
The phrase is used a lot outside this thread!

is being used as a weapon to denigrate Megan Markle and non-White people generally.
In your mind, it is. It is actually a simple phrase to describe those of the characteristics of the English Rose. I don't meet the criteria, I am not offended nor do I regard it as a weapon against me.

Luckily the enthusiastic reaction of the crowds on her and Harry's first public walk-about demonstrated that the majority of people in this country don't agree
No, the reaction of the self-selecting group of people who chose to wave H and MM on their walk-about demonstrates nothing about the majority of people in this country.

Kate has green eyes - the most uncommon and beautiful. Her eyes are not “dark”.

The expression “English Rose” refers to skin colour which is pale with pink cheeks. It has nothing to do with being English not with having blonde hair and blue eyes.