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The erosion of women

524 replies

IHATEPeppaPig · 03/12/2017 22:14

I know, I know 'not another Trans thread' BUT, I am truly interested in people's opinions on this - I was always of the thought that I don't really care how anyone expresses themselves, carry on as you wish and I do still think this to varying degrees but I am concerned about the Trans agenda moving forwards and the erosion of women and reading through Twitter I found the following articles attached to this tweet:

I'm not personally interested in breastfeeding or giving birth. But the #terf assumption that these abilities are "biologically" reserved for AFAB is just one thing: wrong.

www.nytimes.com/2017/12/02/health/uterus-transplant-baby.html

www.thestranger.com/queer-issue-2017/2017/06/21/25225867/my-first-time-breastfeeding-my-daughter

Now, I found the second article creepy - particularly where they mention that they 'got off' on breastfeeding and I'm not entirely sure how factual it actually is but it's scary that people are using this to prove how defunct 'ciswomen' (I HATE this term) are?

OP posts:
MissBax · 04/12/2017 10:21

Can someone answer me this, and I'm serious - why is it believed that toilets/changing rooms etc are split by gender (something which is evidently immeasurable) rather than sex??
It's clearly split by sex. I want to change around other bodies like mine. Why is that so difficult to stick to??

kungfupannda · 04/12/2017 10:26

I have real issues with the use of the term 'cis woman.' I don't understand why it is discriminatory to use the prefix 'trans' for those who have transitioned from male to female, but not discriminatory to expect people who were born as women to accept a prefix.

It does rather feel as though women are being expected to vacate the term 'woman' so that another group can use it.

SaturdayNightAtTheMovies · 04/12/2017 10:29

Can someone answer me this, and I'm serious - why is it believed that toilets/changing rooms etc are split by gender (something which is evidently immeasurable) rather than sex??
It's clearly split by sex. I want to change around other bodies like mine. Why is that so difficult to stick to??

Again, MissBax, completely agree.

Within that changing room, there will be different sexualities, different ideas about gender, different lifestyles...

If the issue is the behaviour of men (sexual, social, personal) that means trans people don't want to be with them, then perhaps men should be addressing the negative impact they have on those around them, rather than it being the responsibility of women to accept anyone and everyone who comes our way.

Datun · 04/12/2017 10:31

It's clearly split by sex. I want to change around other bodies like mine. Why is that so difficult to stick to??

Because there is a large, vocal influential cohort who want access to women’s spaces to provide them with validation, (amongst other things which are probably a little more nefarious than that).

Many transwomen have AGP. Which means they are aroused by the thought of themselves as a woman, and accessing women’s spaces is all part of it. It’s a sexual kick. Forcing women to except them as women is also a sexual kick.

Likewise getting lesbians to accept them as women, and therefore sleep with them. See cotton ceiling.

Lweji · 04/12/2017 10:32

BTW, I don't have a problem with accepting anyone for what or who they are, or what they prefer to wear or do.
I'm not even against unisex spaces, with proper safeguards.

I just don't like gender stereotypes and women being unsafe.

HidingBehindTheWallpaper · 04/12/2017 10:33

I have real issues with the use of the term 'cis woman.'

I’ve not seen cis men before either. But that might be because I haven’t been reading anything that might have it in.

From what I see of a young person I know who is transitioning it seems to me that they are wanting to reject the rigid stereotypes of their sex and the grass looks a lot greener on the other side.
I think we need to look at the way western society views gender stereotypes. However individuals can’t change that.

JacquesHammer · 04/12/2017 10:36

@fricative checking out the etymology of "hysteria" might help you out.

It's very easy to cherry pick a few negative/contraversal articles to demonise a whole minority who we dislike

Very patronising. I have absolutely no issue with transpeople and very much agree they need protecting both legally and morally.

What I care about is being re-classified myself. I am not a "cis" woman. I am a woman.

A transwoman is just that. Why should women be reclassified when there are perfectly acceptable terms already "woman" and "transwoman".

fricative · 04/12/2017 10:40

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DamnItall · 04/12/2017 10:40

Wtf is “mind of a woman”?

Would also be interested to know what this is. Do I have one? How would I tell?

Well duh, isn't it obvious, if you have a CT/MRI brain scan it flashes up as pink......

Due to my work history I have encountered several Trans-people; and I'll be honest most were male to trans. I fully support their right to live as they want without discrimination/harassment.

But not one of them have ever believed that they are a woman or can become one, and the ones I'm still in touch with are terrified by the way things are going.

They all reckon that there is going to be a huge backlash due to the antics of TRA's, but any of them who had put forward that view; well it wasn't pretty, one has now shut off all social media which till that point was a huge support.

coldteawarmcat · 04/12/2017 10:42

want opinions? Okay: trans women are women

Except they are not, and you and I and they all know it.

You can have all the opinions you like, you cannot have your own facts.

MissBax · 04/12/2017 10:42

If the issue is the behaviour of men (sexual, social, personal) that means trans people don't want to be with them, then perhaps men should be addressing the negative impact they have on those around them, rather than it being the responsibility of women to accept anyone and everyone who comes our way.

Absolutely! The question must be asked - WHY transwomen do not feel comfortable changing around men??
Because I guarantee whatever the reason, we women feel exactly the same. Hence we do not want biological men in our safe spaces.

SmileEachDay · 04/12/2017 10:44

We now have a Labour Women's Officer who is a trans identifying male. A 19 year old one, at that.

The same trans identifying male is going for a piece of the Jo Cox Women in Leadership programme/

Lily Madigan also went to the recent Reclaim The Night march in London, and when asked why, said that they had a right to go. When asked if perhaps that might not be very empathetic towards women who had suffered extreme trauma at the hands of male bodied people, Lily said that 'not everyone shares your trans exclusionary view, I had a right to be there'.

The is the Women's Officer. Representing women, at national level.

That's just one person, but for me it serves as a symbol for what is happening right now. Women do not have a voice in this: we are threatened and shouted down.

The Labour Party stance is that 'trans women are women'. Where does that leave me, as a woman who has been told to 'fuck off and get raped' for expressing my belief that biology is indeed 'a thing'. Where is my right to representation?

Trans identifying people have been around for a long time - the point at which someone started yelling that trans identifying men (it's ALWAYS about TiM, never about trans identifying women) were literal, actual women is where things started to go down a very, very dangerous path.

Nyx1 · 04/12/2017 10:45

Please can someone remind me what TIM stands for? Thanks.

TiredOfThisAll · 04/12/2017 10:45

MissBax that is a good question.

I think personally it has been the main gain of the transactivist lobby, to switch the discussion from transsexual to transgender, because everything else follows from that linguistic sleight of hand.

If we talk about gender, we are talking about external appearance and social norms, not biology, as many others have pointed out.

Thus, if we talk about gender as if it were sex, we can believe the lie that changing gender= changing sex. This involves forgetting, however, that gender is a social construct which changes across time and place, and is really a bit meaningless other than an accepted way to organise society hierarchically. The hierarchy of gender is historically based on reproductive biology, but it is not determined by it.

So second wave feminists argued that gender roles should be deconstructed and women should be able to have the same opportunities as men, regardless of biological sex. (They were gender critical in today’s terms, but used the term gender distinct from sex, to delineate social from biological; they never argued biological did not matter, that is why we have access to contraception, abortion, DV refuges etc)

Third wave, neoliberal feminists argued that gender was performative and that performing it was a choice and could be empowering. This meshed with neoliberal capitalism to consumerise gender choices.

Fourth wave feminists argue that gender can be performed by anyone regardless of sex and if a man says he is a woman, he is. I do think people here genuinely think expanding the boundaries of what it means to be a woman is in line with feminist thinking, and anything else is discrimination.

Add developments in surgery, synthetic hormones, a whole new market for make up and fake boobs, and a way for men to access women’s safe spaces and undermine their hard-fought gains, and bingo, it makes commercial and political sense to talk about gender and not sex.

Because if you cannot change sex, then there is no reason for men to take hormones, have surgery, buy make up, enter women’s spaces, and keep the neoliberal capitalist economy and patriarchal complex upheld.

Whereas if we talk about splitting bathrooms by gender, we are really talking about external appearances; people who look like women (very superficially) and men who identify as women (by adopting the superficial, stereotypical trappings of femininity) can go into the women’s bathrooms, but also keep the whole pharmaceutical, capitalist, patriarchal complex going - and people can seem right on and liberal and applaud it too.

Not sure if that answers the question, though. But I think if it is possible to answer why we all need to talk about gender, not sex, then we are half-way to understanding what this is really about.

Because you cannot say on one hand there are multiple genders, and then try to shoehorn them into two bathroom categories. That is a nonsense.

StatelessPrincess · 04/12/2017 10:46

demonise a whole minority who we dislike
Please point out where someone has said they dislike transwomen, because I haven't seen that on this thread or any of the many other MN threads about this issue. It's nothing to do with liking or not liking people.

Also dying to know how the ''mind of a woman'' can be defined. As if we are all the same, like little robots in our dresses and heels Hmm

Gileswithachainsaw · 04/12/2017 10:47

No jobs should be dedicated to women. I don't want equality of outcome. That's for losers

What not even a ^womans officer*

Really?

SmileEachDay · 04/12/2017 10:47

Nyx Trans identifyimg Male

SparklyUnicornTractors · 04/12/2017 10:48

Nyx it means Trans Identified Male.

SparklyUnicornTractors · 04/12/2017 10:48

Cross post, sorry.

Gileswithachainsaw · 04/12/2017 10:49

Or maybe we should go back to Shakespearean times where womens roles were taken by men.

So all female cast members should now he men in drag instead cos god forbid a woman auditions for a part of a woman Hmm

coldteawarmcat · 04/12/2017 10:50

Did anyone read that article about the transwoman BF'ing? A whole spiel about how amazing she is, how she can breastfeed just the same as any other woman, how the lactation experts were unhelpful blah blah blah...and then (shocker) a line about "oops, it didn't actually work and I couldn't do it, but it definitely wasn't because I don't actually have ladyboobs or the ability to BF, it was some other shit".

FFS, how do you even talk to that much crazy?

fricative · 04/12/2017 10:51

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therealposieparker · 04/12/2017 10:51

Prominent TAs aka men do have a very focussed drive to eliminate women generally, but they do this by silencing opinions that don't agree first. Ive' come to the conclusion that TAs hate women, every single one of us unless we submit and serve their fetish. Erasing the meaning of specific language is a known tactic....

Sentimentallentil · 04/12/2017 10:51

‘Unless you're saying a rabbi biting a foreskin off should be protected as somehow okay or not as bad as FGM.’

No one is saying that male genital mutilation is ok, but it is an entirely different ball game.
The removal of the clitoris and the removal of the foreskin cannot be compared, I’m not saying the removal of the foreskin is ok, it’s not, but they need to be kept separate because they are separate acts.

Gileswithachainsaw · 04/12/2017 10:52

What about a 19 yr old man who's been in.politics 6 months?

Is he superior to a woman with years if experience as a woman's officer?

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